Discipline for the sake of discipline?

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
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prsvrnc
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Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by prsvrnc »

My wonderful teacher (a monk and Geshe) said some things—sadly I can’t remember it in its detail or even in its true context, really—but part of it has stuck around in my mind and I think about it quite a lot. He was speaking about how a person might not have too many good qualities, but how with a certain amount of effort that same person can eventually become someone who is known for their immaculate discipline and how this is a great thing. (I guess, that it is great thing that such a practitioner is so disciplined.) I also came across a biography of a Rinpoche in which it said he was “renowned for his discipline.”

The above makes it sound as if discipline is an end in and of itself. I need more convincing that “discipline” is such a great thing before I will value and revere it in another person (or strive to cultivate it in myself). I am impressed by the will behind disciplined behavior but outside of it being impressive, what is its merit and value? Thinking of a “dharma-related discipline” that is externally recognizable makes me even more skeptical since someone externally recognizable probably has to do with monastic code of conduct or posture or something, which I don’t really see relevant to someone living in today’s world, nor even relevant outside of the monastic code itself. And I feel there is only relative or dare I say limited value in following that.

It’s possible I am over thinking this. Some discipline is a good thing. But I wouldn’t revere a Rinpoche or a teacher solely because of his or her discipline. It’s impressive but I would want to know why such and such is done down to the last detail. I might revere the effect his discipline had on others……….

Any thoughts?

I googled this and came across a book with the following passage that I thought was illuminating (see below).


[Side note: I would like to know the fundamental building blocks that really constitute dharma (not just rule following), and I want to know what that building block is, so to speak, when it comes to discipline. I want to know what this is in a world that never heard of Shakyamuni and does not have any established teachings. This is hypothetical but is sort of the way I am actually looking at this question.]
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Losal Samten
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Losal Samten »

Tönpa Shenrab said that the heart of his teachings is constituted by ethics (tshul-khrims, or morality). These ethics refers to the moral conduct, law and vows that one follows as a correct or qualified practitioner. Tönpa Shenrab thus said:
"The Revelation of the Buddha is Ethics;
If there are no Ethics, there is no Revelation."
- JLA

Ethical conduct is the basis for stable meditation, and stable meditation is the basis of wisdom, and wisdom is the basis of Buddhahood. These, shila/samadhi/prajna, are know as the three higher trainings in Buddhism.

On an even more relatable level, ethical conduct is the cause of rebirth in the higher realms, which everybody wants whether Buddhist or not.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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Losal Samten
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Losal Samten »

Mother's Lap wrote:and wisdom is the basis of Buddhahood
Wisdom is one half of the cause of Buddhahood I should say, the other being the accumulation of merit (which ethical conduct generates directly, as opposed to it being the indirect cause of wisdom).
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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prsvrnc
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by prsvrnc »

I guess I was going to say..... let's say the disciplined person in question is a realized being or better yet, a buddha. What is the good of discipline for such a being if he (or she) had already competed his/her own attainment? Would it be as an example for others, or.....?
Last edited by prsvrnc on Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Losal Samten
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Losal Samten »

The rupakaya always acts for the benefit of others.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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seeker242
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by seeker242 »

If a person has very good discipline and never breaks precepts, never engages in wrong speech, never engages in wrong action, etc. I don't see how this couldn't be a good thing.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Losal Samten
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Losal Samten »

seeker242 wrote:If a person has very good discipline and never breaks precepts, never engages in wrong speech, never engages in wrong action, etc. I don't see how this couldn't be a good thing.
The shila of body and speech (but not mind) can be broken by bodhisattvas who have bodhicitta in order to benefit beings; if a bodhisattva can benefit a being but does not in favour of holding precepts, that is actually a downfall.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
Punya
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Punya »

seeker242 wrote:If a person has very good discipline and never breaks precepts, never engages in wrong speech, never engages in wrong action, etc. I don't see how this couldn't be a good thing.
It depends on the person's motivation. If all they are doing is maintaining an outer appearance of these things, and especially there is a pride in doing so or even using this discipline as a pedestal from which to judge others, then not so good.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
Vasana
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Vasana »

To have discipline really just means to never act in contrary to your own and others highest spiritual good. More than often, we don't act for our own highest good, let alone the highest good of others...Namely because we lack the intrinsic-discipline and diligence required to do so.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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seeker242
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by seeker242 »

Punya wrote:
seeker242 wrote:If a person has very good discipline and never breaks precepts, never engages in wrong speech, never engages in wrong action, etc. I don't see how this couldn't be a good thing.
It depends on the person's motivation. If all they are doing is maintaining an outer appearance of these things, and especially there is a pride in doing so or even using this discipline as a pedestal from which to judge others, then not so good.
Perhaps, but still better than actually doing the wrong action. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Punya
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Punya »

Possibly.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
SeeLion
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by SeeLion »

Discipline can be a feature of concentration, of a focused, clear mind.

I'm talking about peace discipline. If one is doing war discipline, battling with the mind ... that can be a problem.
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prsvrnc
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by prsvrnc »

Vasana wrote:To have discipline really just means to never act in contrary to your own and others highest spiritual good. More than often, we don't act for our own highest good, let alone the highest good of others...Namely because we lack the intrinsic-discipline and diligence required to do so.
I LOVE THIS. THIS SETTLES IT (for me). THANK YOU.
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skittles
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by skittles »

What your teacher said is true.

Discipline makes it possible to do great things even if you don't understand the process or why it's important.

Look at people that are disciplined with cleaning their house, exercising, dieting, keeping up their appearance and professional life. They live much better lives even if they aren't very intelligent because discipline keeps them from doing whatever's pleasant at the time. Then there are things you can't see like spiritual practice. You do the practices and you consider the teachings day in and out and even if you're not intelligent enough to see where all the practice is going, you still get the results.

Also people that are disciplined are more reliable, they keep their things in good working order, they have much less stress because they stay within the law and don't procrastinate.

It bothers me a great deal when I see parents that don't instill the value of self discipline in their children. I don't mean beating up the child, but things like keeping their surroundings clean, brushing their teeth, completing their school work, not eating junk food or watching tv, and being punctual. You know, I didn't start brushing my teeth until I was 8 or 9 years old? It's very difficult to develop discipline later in life.
"My main teacher Serkong Rinpoche, who was one of the teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, explained that having a protector is like having a very strong and vicious dog. If you are a strong person, you could go sit and guard your own gate every night to make sure that thieves don’t attack, but usually people wouldn’t do that. It’s not that we don’t have the ability, it’s just: why bother? You could post a dog there instead." - Alex Berzin http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... rs_ab.html
Saoshun
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Saoshun »

Well... you really need argument for discipline? You ever heard of freedom? Discipline means freedom, you are not controlled by your compulsive aspects which people sadly consider as "freedom" today, being controlled by their passions and all stuff which create myriad sufferings from health and mental diseases.

You do not need discipline but some insight and knowledge then discipline becomes obvious, and I do not say to be like hardcore celibate or ascetic, just making things consciously and going the way you want it, it's freedom it's discipline. Look at yourself, you want to clean a room but somehow you end up in dharma wheel forum, which creates thoughts "oh my god I'm so and so" etc.

Discipline breaks samsaric patterns of behavior and there is no better discipline then lojong.
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Boomerang
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Boomerang »

Garchen Rinpoche once said the outer meaning of bodhicitta is discipline.
Yeti
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Yeti »

If one has the discipline to remain in undistracted awareness, that too me is worthy of veneration.
"People are fond of saying all sorts of things about others behind their backs, mentioning their names again and again. Instead of slandering others in this way, “slander” the yidam: utter his name repeatedly by reciting his mantra all the time." - Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche - Zurchungpa’s Testament - Shambhala Publications
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Berry
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by Berry »

Yeti wrote:If one has the discipline to remain in undistracted awareness, that too me is worthy of veneration.

:thumbsup:
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
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maybay
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by maybay »

prsvrnc wrote:makes me even more skeptical since someone externally recognizable probably has to do with monastic code of conduct or posture or something, which I don’t really see relevant to someone living in today’s world, nor even relevant outside of the monastic code itself.
How is disciplined posture not relevant to someone living in today's world?
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
daelm
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Re: Discipline for the sake of discipline?

Post by daelm »

prsvrnc wrote:My wonderful teacher (a monk and Geshe) said some things—sadly I can’t remember it in its detail or even in its true context, really—but part of it has stuck around in my mind and I think about it quite a lot. He was speaking about how a person might not have too many good qualities, but how with a certain amount of effort that same person can eventually become someone who is known for their immaculate discipline and how this is a great thing. (I guess, that it is great thing that such a practitioner is so disciplined.) I also came across a biography of a Rinpoche in which it said he was “renowned for his discipline.”

The above makes it sound as if discipline is an end in and of itself. I need more convincing that “discipline” is such a great thing before I will value and revere it in another person (or strive to cultivate it in myself). I am impressed by the will behind disciplined behavior but outside of it being impressive, what is its merit and value? Thinking of a “dharma-related discipline” that is externally recognizable makes me even more skeptical since someone externally recognizable probably has to do with monastic code of conduct or posture or something, which I don’t really see relevant to someone living in today’s world, nor even relevant outside of the monastic code itself. And I feel there is only relative or dare I say limited value in following that.

It’s possible I am over thinking this. Some discipline is a good thing. But I wouldn’t revere a Rinpoche or a teacher solely because of his or her discipline. It’s impressive but I would want to know why such and such is done down to the last detail. I might revere the effect his discipline had on others……….

Any thoughts?
this might be helpful too

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p324497

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p324500


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