Details on Stealing

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Grigoris
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Re: Details on Stealing

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:18 pm

Vasana wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:52 am
What is the general stance on things like not paying for a service like public transport? Another grey area or clear-cut?
Depends on why you did not pay.

For example: Whenever I travel to Athens the first thing I do is buy a fist full of bus tickets. At some point in time the tickets run out and often I have found myself somewhere where you cannot buy tickets (vandalised vending machines, industrial or heavily residential areas without stores that sell tickets, etc). Well, I jump on the bus coz the other options are too unpleasant to consider. Was my motivation to travel for free? was I looking to rip off the public transport system?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Vasana
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Re: Details on Stealing

Post by Vasana » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:18 pm
Vasana wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:52 am
What is the general stance on things like not paying for a service like public transport? Another grey area or clear-cut?
Depends on why you did not pay.

For example: Whenever I travel to Athens the first thing I do is buy a fist full of bus tickets. At some point in time the tickets run out and often I have found myself somewhere where you cannot buy tickets (vandalised vending machines, industrial or heavily residential areas without stores that sell tickets, etc). well, I jump on the bus coz the other options are too unpleasant to consider. Was my motivation to travel for free? was I looking to rip off the public transport system?
What if the public transport system in your country is it's self ripping you off? As in, the cost of services seem disproportionate to the service provided and only increases each year for trains. I pay for most journeys at a cost I don't think is fair which I then use to rationalise not paying for some others. It used to feel fine but now I'm not so 100% sure if it's justified...but then neither is the fee!

I guess I should just pay up. :tantrum:
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

kausalya
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Re: Details on Stealing

Post by kausalya » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:28 pm

Does everyone cherish self more than others? Almost certainly.

This topic only concerns me when it comes to copying PDFs of Dharma books, which I have often done. This thread has given me much to consider... and I think I may have my answer.

Sometimes, I may copy a book/video because I feel the teachings are exotic or enticing and I want to explore their secrets outside of the context of my own tradition and the instructions I'm qualified to practice. In large part, I'm now forced to confess that this is wrong. It doesn't arise from the wisdom that enables me to practice what I've been given.

However, other books that I feel hesitant to buy because of my economic circumstances (which, I admit, is also an afflictive emotion) relate more directly to my practice, particularly Mind-Training texts such as Wheel of Sharp Weapons.

If I acknowledge that my mind is afflicted, and I seek the teachings through unconventional channels out of a desire to sidestep my money worries and habituate my mind to better ways of thinking, what have I done? Perhaps not the purest action, which would see me seeking nothing but my teacher's words, and dropping all else -- but am I at that stage yet? I think not, and I think trying to force myself into a state of absolute purity may not free me from the root of the problem itself.

At this time I believe the answer, for me, is to make an honest determination about whether or not the text is valuable to me from a practice perspective, as opposed to a curiosity (or hunting for secret teachings).

Only when I'm completely at peace with my decision, regardless of what karma it creates, can I be sure of creating good karma. That is, I have to trust myself to notice an ethical problem and work it through, rather than stopping my enquiry based on others' answers. I can be the only one who determines the thoroughness of my analysis, because, if there is some greater path to be had, it's presently beyond me.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Emmet
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Re: Details on Stealing

Post by Emmet » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:59 pm

To me, it seems a bit of a stretch to consider finding money in the road theft, but if that's how you read and practice the Second Precept, then by all means leave it in situ. To me, money is merely a resource; for myself and many I know, an increasingly scarce one. It would seem wasteful for it to be washed down a storm drain or blown away; no different than wasting food when others are hungry. On the other hand, while in light of the admonition not to take what is not offered I may consider such a windfall to be a gift of Fortuna, I should remember that Fortuna is neither just nor fair; my good luck is often someone else's misfortune. To my mind, the best option most consistent with my practice would be to pick it up and give it to the next homeless person I encounter; no loss, no gain; simply shepherding a resource from where it was lost to where it is most needed. However, I would not want to confuse this with dana, the first of the paramitas.

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