5 precepts. Alcohol?

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:33 pm

Ayu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
boda wrote:There's no "Buddhist paradigm" where alcohol doesn't negatively effect our nervous and endocrine systems.
Yes, there is. It's called Vajrayāna.
There are several Vajrayana teachers who wouldn't agree to a claim like this.
Maybe amongst Gelugpas.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

narhwal90
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:15 pm

What about vajrayana use of heroin or crack cocaine?

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:24 pm

narhwal90 wrote:What about vajrayana use of heroin or crack cocaine?
There's a saying in the Vajrayana that entering the Path is like being a snake is a piece of bamboo. You can only go up or down. Down is still very much a possibility.

I see HHDL as a bodhisattva. And I've tried some of the nastier drugs. In my opinion, if you were to kidnap HHDL, tie him down, and force feed him some of those drugs he'd up an addicted madman like anyone else that gets hooked. In theory a true Nirmanakaya Buddha would not, since he is beyond all causes and conditions.

However that's just my idea about the whole thing, based somewhat on personal experience and reading some texts.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Ayu
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Ayu » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Ayu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is. It's called Vajrayāna.
There are several Vajrayana teachers who wouldn't agree to a claim like this.
Maybe amongst Gelugpas.
What about Tai Situ Rinpoche who is Kagyü? "Renunciation in the Three Yanas" http://multimedia.getresponse.com/725/6 ... s/8770.pdf
TSR on page 5 wrote:In this way then, we understand the definition of true tantra and true Vajrayana. In true Vajrayana there is only one thing that is crucial and that is samaya—based on samaya you have to function. You renounce everything for samaya; you keep samaya. In order to keep samaya, renounce everything. How much do we have to renounce? There is no number, we have to renounce everything. Everybody is a deity, everything is a mandala, every sound is mantra, every thought is wisdom, samadhi, and you have to keep this samaya. I can’t. For example, I like mineral water, but I can't drink from the Ganges today, but in pure tantric samaya we can do that. In my mind Buddha is up there, I am down here and other sentient beings are way below—there is somebody above me, somebody below me, and somebody at the same level. But in pure tantra you can't do that, all are the same. But unless you have truly reached that level, you can't comprehend it. Even if you try and pretend to comprehend it, I guarantee you, the first thing that will happen is that you will end up behind bars!
He says, because he cannot keep the Vajrayana-renunciation for 100%, it is more save for himself to keep also the other ("lower") precepts. I think, he speaks for most of us.
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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:36 pm

narhwal90 wrote:What about vajrayana use of heroin or crack cocaine?
Well, when you are in pain, you can use pain killers, there is little difference between this opioid and that, apart from potency or purity, the effect of all is the same.

And, of course, you can try anything once. I once smoked freebase (crack), in 1986. I didn't like the taste, and I don't like cocaine. I have done methamphetamine, heroin, morphine, etc. I don't recommend these things, but the hysteria around drugs and the war on drugs is really crazy.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:38 pm

Ayu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Ayu wrote: There are several Vajrayana teachers who wouldn't agree to a claim like this.
Maybe amongst Gelugpas.
What about Tai Situ Rinpoche who is Kagyü? "Renunciation in the Three Yanas" http://multimedia.getresponse.com/725/6 ... s/8770.pdf
With all due respect to Tai Situ, he has been a monk his whole life. He is not qualified to discuss the issue of alcohol. It is like Mipham writing a Tibetan Kama Sutra, it was all theory with no real practice. This is why Ganden Chöphel wrote one based on his experience of women.

And further, Vajrayāna (for the 100th time) is not a path of renunciation, though one must develop weariness with respect to samsara to embark upon this path.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:14 pm

And further, Vajrayāna (for the 100th time) is not a path of renunciation, though one must develop weariness with respect to samsara to embark upon this path.
Personally I like to make the distinction by saying that Vajrayana is not a path of eschewment. This clarifies any confusion the weariness of which you speak which is correctly called renunciation. Using the same word for both things is extremely misleading imo.

If one has progress to the point where you can see all of life as potential opportunities for enlightenment then you can embrace everything as such. However that opportunity is not present if you still see life in terms of self-indulgence. The difference is actual renunciation (weariness) and the positive aspiration of bodhicitta.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:22 pm

smcj wrote:
And further, Vajrayāna (for the 100th time) is not a path of renunciation, though one must develop weariness with respect to samsara to embark upon this path.
Personally I like to make the distinction by saying that Vajrayana is not a path of eschewment. This clarifies any confusion the weariness of which you speak which is correctly called renunciation. Using the same word for both things is extremely misleading imo.
It is the same word in Tibetan and Sanskrit, therefore, it should be the same word in English. Weariness (revulsion, etc.) is a different word.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:32 pm

How about renunciation of kleshas?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:39 pm

It is the same word in Tibetan and Sanskrit, therefore, it should be the same word in English. Weariness (revulsion, etc.) is a different word.
Is it the same concept when used in the two different contexts? Or is it possible to, as you have posted elsewhere, have the renunciation which is necessary to practice any Path at all, and yet not renounce any aspect of life that can potentially be utilized in walking said Path.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:03 pm

smcj wrote:
It is the same word in Tibetan and Sanskrit, therefore, it should be the same word in English. Weariness (revulsion, etc.) is a different word.
Is it the same concept when used in the two different contexts?

Yup.

In Sūtra, the path is based on giving up sense pleasures. In Vajrayāna, it is not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
It is the same word in Tibetan and Sanskrit, therefore, it should be the same word in English. Weariness (revulsion, etc.) is a different word.
Is it the same concept when used in the two different contexts?

Yup.

In Sūtra, the path is based on giving up sense pleasures. In Vajrayāna, it is not.
My Gelug teacher was very specific in making it clear to me personally that in no form of Dharma are the defilements to be indulged in as defilements--including the Vajrayana. In the Vajrayana they are the raw material that is transformed into Wisdoms. Thus they do not remain on the level of defilements, which is what true renunciation is all about.

I know you're not a Gelugpa, but that perspective is one legitimate way of looking at it. Plus it removes many many complications and confusions, especially amongst Westerners. YMMV.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:20 pm

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: Is it the same concept when used in the two different contexts?

Yup.

In Sūtra, the path is based on giving up sense pleasures. In Vajrayāna, it is not.
My Gelug teacher was very specific in making it clear to me personally that in no form of Dharma are the defilements to be indulged...
"Indulging in defilements" is not what "using the sense pleasures" on the path means.

For example, if you are a sūtra practitioner, it is ultimately considered ideal to give up sexual pleasure; in Vajrayāna, it is not, in fact, it is the opposite.

Vajrayāna is the path devised by the Buddhas for the era (this one) when afflictions are so strong they cannot be abandoned; and therefore, since they are the ultimate causes of suffering, they must be transformed using the special methods of Vajrayāna, because in fact, they cannot be abandoned.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:00 pm

For example, if you are a sūtra practitioner, it is ultimately considered ideal to give up sexual pleasure; in Vajrayāna, it is not, in fact, it is the opposite.
My Vajrayana teachers are mostly monks. There are a couple of non-monks, but they are in the minority. And none of them downplay the role of Sutrayana as a foundation for Vajrayana. And none of them have suggested that drinking alcohol is a practice.

Oh, except I did know one Western lama/monk (not a teacher of mine) that was an alcoholic and used the Vajrayana as a rationalization for his drinking. His teachers were not pleased.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:22 pm

smcj wrote:
For example, if you are a sūtra practitioner, it is ultimately considered ideal to give up sexual pleasure; in Vajrayāna, it is not, in fact, it is the opposite.
My Vajrayana teachers are mostly monks. There are a couple of non-monks, but they are in the minority. And none of them downplay the role of Sutrayana as a foundation for Vajrayana. And none of them have suggested that drinking alcohol is a practice.

Oh, except I did know one Western lama/monk (not a teacher of mine) that was an alcoholic and used the Vajrayana as a rationalization for his drinking. His teachers were not pleased.
Sūtrayāna is not a foundation for Vajrayāna in terms of the path. Loppon Sonam Tsemo, one of the five founder masters of Sakya, writes (citations excluded) in his General Presentation of Tantra. First with regard to the Sūtra path, he says:
  • [T]he Pāramitāyāna practitioner makes that basis into a path by giving it up.
He continues a little later:
  • First, the basis, as explained before, is the five desire objects. Those are the basis itself, but if it is the objects themselves, how are they to be given up? Since most people are totally fettered, how are [they] able to give up [the basis]? [The basis] is not to be given up.

    Now then, if one asks “Won’t there be bondage because of objects?” Those without a method will be bound, i.e., like common beings. If one possesses a method, liberation is assisted by those [objects] themselves. For example, like poison or like fire. Therefore, objects do not intrinsically create bondage. Bondage is created by the deceived concepts depending on those [objects]. For that reason, since one is liberated because of having given up the intrinsic cause of bondage [i.e. deceived concepts,] the objects which [earlier] became the condition of that [bondage] [now] become the condition of liberation.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

vinegar
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by vinegar » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:For that reason, since one is liberated because of having given up the intrinsic cause of bondage [i.e. deceived concepts,] the objects which [earlier] became the condition of that [bondage] [now] become the condition of liberation.[/i][/list]
Right, we use afflicted desire to get rid of afflicted desire, to become liberated from useless crap like cancer-causing estrogenic alcohol and everything else in the desire realm.

That's the only time to use it. Otherwise we are proponents of emptiness who are have less renunciation than the proponents of essences that have developed the skill to correctly discriminated the unsatisfactory nature of desire realm objects, achieving form realm absorption

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:35 pm

vinegar wrote:
Malcolm wrote:For that reason, since one is liberated because of having given up the intrinsic cause of bondage [i.e. deceived concepts,] the objects which [earlier] became the condition of that [bondage] [now] become the condition of liberation.[/i][/list]
Right, we use afflicted desire to get rid of afflicted desire, to become liberated from useless crap like cancer-causing estrogenic alcohol and everything else in the desire realm.

That's the only time to use it. Otherwise we are proponents of emptiness who are have less renunciation than the proponents of essences that have developed the skill to correctly discriminated the unsatisfactory nature of desire realm objects, achieving form realm absorption
Objects of the three realms are never the problem. Indeed, the three realms are pure.

And yes, proponents of essences often have more "renunciation" than proponents of emptiness. Why? Since they have no understanding of emptiness, they also have no understanding of purity.

Further, form realms absorptions just are not all that.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

vinegar
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by vinegar » Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:Objects of the three realms are never the problem. Indeed, the three realms are pure.
In other words, it's ok to drink alcohol when we don't have much preference between a cup of blood-covered shit and a cup of alcohol.

For everyone else, you possess the lowest kind of afflicted desire, desire for desire realm sense objects. Fortunately you can suppress this pitiful state with concentration, until purity comes knocking

AlexMcLeod
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by AlexMcLeod » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:24 pm

Yeah, you could try that, or you can do what the Buddha is recorded as having asked his lay disciples to do, and just not drink strong intoxicants.

Better to just say, the precept is what it is, take it or leave it.

Advanced methods are specific for those that have learned them, and thus useless in a general conversation.
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There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.

shaunc
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by shaunc » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:27 am

If you honestly don't know what the big deal is with alcohol drive a taxi cab for a few night shifts and then come back to this topic.
The 5th precept is just that, a Buddhist precept, it's not law, take it or leave it. The choice is yours.

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