5 precepts. Alcohol?

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Ayu
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Ayu » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:43 am

Just in order to set a sign I removed some posts that had a too aggressive flavor or a too big lack of objectivity. I know, the selection was not unbiased. I'm sorry.
Please try to keep calm in this discussion and take a pause in arguing, if you are too excited.
Thanks.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

Simon E.
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:47 am

Then I will leave it. In the sense of assuming that as an adult I can decide to observe the spirit rather than the letter and continue to have a glass of wine at weekends and the occasional beer on hot days.
Not everyone can do that. And they should leave the booze alone.
But in my experience, many can.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

vinegar
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by vinegar » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:40 am

Simon E. wrote:I can decide to observe the spirit rather than the letter
The spirit and the letter are in accord: give up craving for sense objects.
Doubly so if they are harmful.

Alcohol is a serious carcinogen, and the primary source for phytoestrogens which support cancer in addition to giving you female sexual characteristic.

They bind to alpha cells receptors so they are the most potent form of estrogen short of taking an estrogen tablet.

Simon E.
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:42 am

Life's too short for debate with fundamentalists.

'Ignore' deployed.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Ayu
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Ayu » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:57 am

Let's have a 24h timeout.
:namaste:
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

boda
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by boda » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:21 pm

Simon mentioned observing the spirit rather than the letter of the precept. I can't help wondering what Simon and others believe the spirit to be.

Buddhist practice, generally speaking, consists of things like mindfulness, concentration, and right effort, action, speech, etc.. Alcohol has a negative effect on all of these things, even in small quantity, so it is understandable why there is a rule against such an intoxicant. The spirit of the rule appears to be not taking intoxicants because they will negatively effect your practice, simply.

I can imagine a scenario where observing the spirit rather than the letter might apply though. For instance, if you had deep cut that needed to be stiched up and the only anesthetic available to help was alcohol, using it for that purpose wouldn't be against the spirit though it would be against the letter.

vinegar
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by vinegar » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:01 am

boda wrote:Simon mentioned observing the spirit rather than the letter of the precept. I can't help wondering what Simon and others believe the spirit to be.
It's nonsense, there is no room for interpretation with vows. They are strict definitions which address all contexts.

When you can't win the scientific argument, you can't win the health argument, you can't win the social convention argument, and you can't win the buddhist scripture argument, then you behave irrationally. Classic head-in-the-sand response it couldn't have been more cliche if you had written a script.

There are 2 options:

1, don't take the vow giving up alcohol. Drink in moderation to enjoy your social setting which you desire. But don't pretend it is in accord with common buddhadharma practice or that hedonistic pleasure approaches anything close to the pleasure of perfect samadhi, which the minimum requirement for beginning serious practice.

2, use alcohol only in advanced practice when finding and denying the object of negation has/is trying to become habitual, at which point alcohol is no longer alcohol, and your interaction is utterly beyond desire to put things into your food hole

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:54 am

I can understand why someone would want to drink socially. And I can understand why somebody would not want to drink at all (which has been my personal choice for 17 years). And I can understand why somebody would want to take a vow to not drink. But I don't understand why somebody would want to take a vow to not drink when they have every intention to deliberately break the vow and continue to drink socially.

I really don't get it. Why not just drink socially without creating the negative karma of breaking a vow? Just don't take it to begin with! Breaking a vow creates obstacles to your meditation practice. What's the point in taking it If you're not going to keep it? That's a 100% lose-lose scenario that is completely unnecessary.

As for me, having not had a drink in 17 years, I obviously don't need the vow as a tool for self control. But at some point I intend to take the vow so that my resolve goes beyond the merely personal, but instead deepens my reliance on Dharma, creates good karma, and becomes a seed for liberation. The precepts are designed to strengthen and stabilize the mind to make it more suitable for practice. That is what those vows are for.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:34 am

It's really quite simple smcj. I don't give any regard at all to the Precepts, don't take them. Haven't for decades, see them as irrelevant to my practice. Neither does my teacher see them as necessary. Neither do any of my fellow students who are quite numerous.
This has made no difference at all to my practice which continues to deepen.
As to my health..I have lived long enough, longer than most on this forum. I am in no hurry to cast off this mortal coil just yet but Ive done ok. I will not live a moment longer or shorter than karma vipaka and the merit of my teachers dictates. :smile:

Those who DO take the precepts and see themselves bound by them had better keep them.
You have made a rod for your own backs.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Ayu
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Ayu » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:44 am

Taking precepts and keeping them creates great merrits. It is like gasoline for the motor.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:38 am

Simon E. wrote:It's really quite simple smcj. I don't give any regard at all to the Precepts, don't take them. Haven't for decades...
Ok, that's fine. From your previous posts it seemed as if you had taken them. Since you have not taken them and have no problem drinking socially on occasion, you can do as you please without constraint.

Taking any of the Precepts is a personal choice. Nobody has the right to lay trips on us about it other than our teacher.
Those who DO take the precepts and see themselves bound by them had better keep them.
That was the only point I was trying to make.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Simon E.
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:51 am

Oh I took them back in the 1960's. But I handed them back. :smile:

I went a different way.

But I agree. If you take them, renew them, and find them of benefit you had probably best observe them. I would never try to persuade those to whom the Precept are central to their practice to do otherwise. Horses for courses as they say.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:45 pm

smcj wrote:Nobody has the right to lay trips on us about it other than our teacher.
Even they do not have that right.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:54 pm

vinegar wrote:
don't take the vow giving up alcohol.
If you are following the path of renunciation, this is fine.

use alcohol only in advanced practice when finding and denying the object of negation has/is trying to become habitual, at which point alcohol is no longer alcohol, and your interaction is utterly beyond desire to put things into your food hole
You must be a Gelugpa.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:Nobody has the right to lay trips on us about it other than our teacher.
Even they do not have that right.
They can make an issue out of it, just as they can call us out on any number of behaviors. We are not obliged to listen however.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:58 pm

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:Nobody has the right to lay trips on us about it other than our teacher.
Even they do not have that right.
They can make an issue out of it, just as they can call us out on any number of behaviors. We are not obliged to listen however.
Our teachers are not our nannies, and it demeans them for us to rely on them so.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
vinegar wrote:
don't take the vow giving up alcohol.
If you are following the path of renunciation, this is fine.
How do I know which path I'm following? I don't have official teacher. I have been at lectures of many teachers.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

smcj
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Our teachers are not our nannies, and it demeans them for us to rely on them so.
I've learned to watch myself around good lamas. I've been spanked for bad attitude and behavior, and recently too. The reprimand was not invited, although I did deserve it--sort of. It wasn't fun. But then again I am a child, so I'm sure he would have preferred for me to simply act like an adult.

Rumor had it HHK16 told CTR to stop drinking. If so he would have done well to listen.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:20 pm

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Our teachers are not our nannies, and it demeans them for us to rely on them so.
I've learned to watch myself around good lamas. I've been spanked for bad attitude and behavior, and recently too. The reprimand was not invited, although I did deserve it--sort of. It wasn't fun. But then again I am a child, so I'm sure he would have preferred for me to simply act like an adult.

Rumor had it HHK16 told CTR to stop drinking. If so he would have done well to listen.
Well, grow up.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:31 pm

Well, grow up.
it was an awkward situation and I didn't think I was that out of line, but basically yeah, you're right.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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