5 precepts. Alcohol?

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
Tiago Simões
Posts: 971
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Tiago Simões » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:50 pm

pael wrote:Does semen leaking during sleep or when urinating break third precept?
Are you a Monk? If so no, if not no as well.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28715
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:41 pm

ChrisK wrote:Okay, so in Tibetan Buddhism if I lie it does not take away from my good karma of abstaining from drugs or alcohol? Basically each Precept are individualized? Correct?
Yes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
Posts: 5858
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:54 pm

Is it better to take and break them than not to take them at all
No.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28715
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:06 pm

smcj wrote:
Is it better to take and break them than not to take them at all
No.

Nonesense, Sakya Pandita says exactly the opposite. The merit of taking them outweighs the demerit of breaking them.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Ayu
Former staff member
Posts: 7010
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Ayu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:13 pm

smcj wrote:
Is it better to take and break them than not to take them at all
No.
There has to be no regret at all in order to break them fully.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

smcj
Posts: 5858
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:36 am

smcj wrote:
Is it better to take and break them than not to take them at all?
No.
Malcolm wrote:Nonesense, Sakya Pandita says exactly the opposite.The merit of taking them outweighs the demerit of breaking them.
I took a HYT initiation from a Gelug lama a while back. He said that if you break the samaya of the initiation and end up in Vajra Hell that it was still a great blessing. So yes, there is that kind of perspective.
Sakya Pandita wrote:The merit of taking them outweighs the demerit of breaking them.
Malcolm wrote:The point I am addressing, and it is a very normative view in Buddhism, is that taking vows makes our virtue more virtuous. But this is actually quite silly if you really put on your thinking cap.
Maybe you shouldn't quote someone if you think what they are saying is b.s.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:12 am

Does killing bugs and/or bacteria break or weaken 1st precept?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 2088
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Aemilius » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:40 am

In your body there are the white blood cells whose job it is to kill all kinds of invading bacteria, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cell You would hardly be alive without the body's defence system against bacteria etc.. You must take care of your body and your life, which precept is that?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:51 pm

Killing human breaks precept against killing from root. How about rest?
I have heard you cannot break precept against alcohol. Is it true?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1520
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Japan

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Zhen Li » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:52 pm

pael wrote:Does killing bugs and/or bacteria break or weaken 1st precept?
It's a question of intent.

If you have a malicious intent and kill, and afterwards you revel in satisfaction at the deed, that would be breaking the first precept. If it is an accident, if there is regret and repentance, or if the killing is the by product of an action with intention directed elsewhere, such as ending sickness, then it is not breaking the first precept.
pael wrote:I have heard you cannot break precept against alcohol. Is it true?
You shouldn't break any precept if you have taken it. That defeats the purpose of taking the precept.

smcj
Posts: 5858
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:08 pm

I have heard you cannot break precept against alcohol. Is it true?
Where did you get that idea?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28715
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:18 pm

smcj wrote:
smcj wrote:
Is it better to take and break them than not to take them at all?
No.
Malcolm wrote:Nonesense, Sakya Pandita says exactly the opposite.The merit of taking them outweighs the demerit of breaking them.
I took a HYT initiation from a Gelug lama a while back. He said that if you break the samaya of the initiation and end up in Vajra Hell that it was still a great blessing. So yes, there is that kind of perspective.
Sakya Pandita wrote:The merit of taking them outweighs the demerit of breaking them.
Malcolm wrote:The point I am addressing, and it is a very normative view in Buddhism, is that taking vows makes our virtue more virtuous. But this is actually quite silly if you really put on your thinking cap.
Maybe you shouldn't quote someone if you think what they are saying is b.s.
Maybe you sholdn't confuse Vajrayāna vows with pratimoksha vows, since the latter is clearly what we are discussing here.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
smcj wrote: No.
Malcolm wrote:Nonesense, Sakya Pandita says exactly the opposite.The merit of taking them outweighs the demerit of breaking them.
I took a HYT initiation from a Gelug lama a while back. He said that if you break the samaya of the initiation and end up in Vajra Hell that it was still a great blessing. So yes, there is that kind of perspective.
Sakya Pandita wrote:The merit of taking them outweighs the demerit of breaking them.
Malcolm wrote:The point I am addressing, and it is a very normative view in Buddhism, is that taking vows makes our virtue more virtuous. But this is actually quite silly if you really put on your thinking cap.
Maybe you shouldn't quote someone if you think what they are saying is b.s.
Maybe you sholdn't confuse Vajrayāna vows with pratimoksha vows, since the latter is clearly what we are discussing here.
May I ask does taking alcohol at ganachakra/ganapuja/tsog break precept against alcohol?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28715
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:18 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
I took a HYT initiation from a Gelug lama a while back. He said that if you break the samaya of the initiation and end up in Vajra Hell that it was still a great blessing. So yes, there is that kind of perspective.



Maybe you shouldn't quote someone if you think what they are saying is b.s.
Maybe you sholdn't confuse Vajrayāna vows with pratimoksha vows, since the latter is clearly what we are discussing here.
May I ask does taking alcohol at ganachakra/ganapuja/tsog break precept against alcohol?
No, since in this case the higher vows (Vajrayāna) modify the lower vows (pratimoksha).
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Maybe you sholdn't confuse Vajrayāna vows with pratimoksha vows, since the latter is clearly what we are discussing here.
May I ask does taking alcohol at ganachakra/ganapuja/tsog break precept against alcohol?
No, since in this case the higher vows (Vajrayāna) modify the lower vows (pratimoksha).
Does all Tibetan schools agree on this? Should I take all 5 precepts? I know I will break them sooner or later.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28715
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:24 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote: May I ask does taking alcohol at ganachakra/ganapuja/tsog break precept against alcohol?
No, since in this case the higher vows (Vajrayāna) modify the lower vows (pratimoksha).
Does all Tibetan schools agree on this? Should I take all 5 precepts? I know I will break them sooner or later.
There are various interpretations, but according to Kongtrul, in the end they all agree. If you have received refuge vows, you have taken the precepts. How many you follow (1-5) is up to you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, since in this case the higher vows (Vajrayāna) modify the lower vows (pratimoksha).
Does all Tibetan schools agree on this? Should I take all 5 precepts? I know I will break them sooner or later.
There are various interpretations, but according to Kongtrul, in the end they all agree. If you have received refuge vows, you have taken the precepts. How many you follow (1-5) is up to you.
Does initiation without hair cutting ceremony contain refuge vows? I'm going to hair cutting ceremony. I want to feel i'm really buddhist. I don't really feel being buddhist even though I have taken initiations. Does it mean that I already have refuge vows? I want to make it more official and get refuge name.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28715
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:40 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote: Does all Tibetan schools agree on this? Should I take all 5 precepts? I know I will break them sooner or later.
There are various interpretations, but according to Kongtrul, in the end they all agree. If you have received refuge vows, you have taken the precepts. How many you follow (1-5) is up to you.
Does initiation without hair cutting ceremony contain refuge vows? I'm going to hair cutting ceremony. I want to feel i'm really buddhist. I don't really feel being buddhist even though I have taken initiations. Does it mean that I already have refuge vows? I want to make it more official and get refuge name.
Yes, all initiations have refuge as well as bodhicitta built in. The haircutting ceremony is not necessary, nor is a name. But you are free.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by pael » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, since in this case the higher vows (Vajrayāna) modify the lower vows (pratimoksha).
Does all Tibetan schools agree on this? Should I take all 5 precepts? I know I will break them sooner or later.
There are various interpretations, but according to Kongtrul, in the end they all agree. If you have received refuge vows, you have taken the precepts. How many you follow (1-5) is up to you.
Do you lose refuge vow if all five are broken?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28715
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 precepts. Alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:31 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote: Does all Tibetan schools agree on this? Should I take all 5 precepts? I know I will break them sooner or later.
There are various interpretations, but according to Kongtrul, in the end they all agree. If you have received refuge vows, you have taken the precepts. How many you follow (1-5) is up to you.
Do you lose refuge vow if all five are broken?
No, since your vow of refuge is not dependent on the five precepts. The only way to lose your vow of refuge is to declare that you are no longer a disciple of the Buddha.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Post Reply

Return to “Ethical Conduct”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests