Adultery and Being a Buddhist

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Ayu
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Ayu » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:08 am

gescom wrote:I think if you love your wife as you say then you must tell her.

From Lama Zopa Rinpoche: http://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/sexual-misconduct-0
Sexual misconduct means sexual relations with a person who has a partner – wife, husband, and so forth. If the motivation for such action is not brave hearted, completely renouncing oneself and cherishing others, and with the wisdom seeing what is beneficial for others, then these actions become negative karma. By committing this negative karma of sexual misconduct, then in future lives, for one hundred thousand lifetimes, even if one is reborn as a human being, others completely turn against you and become disharmonious. People do not support you. Also, other people want to leave you and separate from you. Or you may live with someone but it is not harmonious. Also, due to this karma, the place where you live is filthy and smelly. Due to past imprints, the karma left on the mental continuum, you again engage in similar negative actions. This is besides being reborn in the lower realms.
Telling it must not purify the bad karma per se. Maybe it is clearifying, unless the dialogue is not excited. But when the wife is only abused as listener to hurting stories, the result can be reverse to what was intended.
(E.g.: "I love her, because she is not like you." :rolleye: What a wonderful confession.)
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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:22 pm

I wasted 26 years of my life because he couldn't be honest with me, and I discovered his secret on my own....the betrayal and wasted time, makes me furious.

Had he confessed his secret life to me, or had I REALLY LISTENED TO MY INTUITION, I would of been better off.

Lies and betrayal of this type are horribly damaging to everyone.
The truth will set you free.
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by gescom » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:55 pm

Telling it must not purify the bad karma per se. Maybe it is clearifying, unless the dialogue is not excited. But when the wife is only abused as listener to hurting stories, the result can be reverse to what was intended.
(E.g.: "I love her, because she is not like you." :rolleye: What a wonderful confession.)
He just needs to be open and honest. Part of any loving relationship. I don't see the problem with that.

The deceit and dishonesty needs to end. That's causing ongoing negative karma for both the original poster and the other woman. Surely if his Wife happened to find out herself then that would hurt a lot more?

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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Jeff H » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:04 pm

Has anyone else noticed that ChrisK doesn’t post here anymore? Could it be that we’ve turned him off to DW, and possibly Buddhism?

He came here with a mistaken idea about Buddhism and then he was beaten over the head with it by cyber-buddhists. In my opinion, his first mistake was the thought that he shouldn’t practice Buddhism because he was at war and potentially obligated to kill. Anyone who has the karma to be drawn to Buddhism should nurture that inclination. As Punya said earlier in this thread, we all must start exactly where we are.

Home from the battlefield he was again wondering if it was appropriate for him to take up Buddhism due to his adulterous situation. And, again, I’d say “yes!” it is very appropriate to come to Buddhism with all your baggage and see how the teachings can help you purify whatever bad karma you’ve got.

He was informed that adultery is unacceptable according to Buddhism, and that he needed to deal with that immediately. So far so good. Buddhism has tools for dealing with all our internal and external issues. But then there was a general reaction as if he was the Dalai Lama betraying his life-long vows. ChrisK had no Buddhist vows to break -– he was asking for help. Instead he was told to “go F yourself”, presumably because adulterers are irredeemable scum who don’t deserve guidance, only scorn.

That bit of advice was offered and supported on a Buddhist forum by, presumably, Buddhist posters, to a very tentative inquirer. It was not mentioned that the actual Buddha says the root of all suffering –- including the severe pain of being betrayed –- is a result of our own attachment (as opposed to genuine love) and anger (including blaming others for our pain).

All things considered, I think ChrisK bears less guilt than those of us, myself included, who did not receive him with compassion ... because we, presumably, have vows of compassion.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Queequeg » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:29 pm

Hand raised.

Guilty.

I'm an a hole.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:10 pm

Sometimes wrathful compassion is more effective.
When you see someone walking into the street when a truck is comming, you don't sweetly coax them out of danger....you yell at them to watch out .

My "go F. Yourself ", comment should have been removed....i was surprised it wasn't. ...
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Jeff H » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:35 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Sometimes wrathful compassion is more effective.
When you see someone walking into the street when a truck is comming, you don't sweetly coax them out of danger....you yell at them to watch out .

My "go F. Yourself ", comment should have been removed....i was surprised it wasn't. ...
In the spirit of helping someone being run over, I think the more relevant part of my post for you might be: "Buddha says the root of all suffering –- including the severe pain of being betrayed –- is a result of our own attachment (as opposed to genuine love) and anger (including blaming others for our pain)."

Using wrath as a skillful means is better applied by realized beings who more fully understand all the circumstances and consequences.

:consoling:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:45 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Sometimes wrathful compassion is more effective.
When you see someone walking into the street when a truck is comming, you don't sweetly coax them out of danger....you yell at them to watch out .

My "go F. Yourself ", comment should have been removed....i was surprised it wasn't. ...
In the spirit of helping someone being run over, I think the more relevant part of my post for you might be: "Buddha says the root of all suffering –- including the severe pain of being betrayed –- is a result of our own attachment (as opposed to genuine love) and anger (including blaming others for our pain)."

Using wrath as a skillful means is better applied by realized beings who more fully understand all the circumstances and consequences.



________________________________________________________

Yes. If I was Enlightened, I wouldn't have been bothered by the betrayal. I do realize what occurred is the result of my own karma. ...and sexual misconduct. ..
This experience has really messed me up.
As it messes up all women/men that are betrayed by their partner.
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:03 pm

_R_ wrote:To OP,

I would like to say, that most of these comments stem from the background of judeo-christian culture; ie. they don't necessarily reflect buddhist values, but their own upbringin in the West. As far as I am concerned, buddhism isn't about society as a whole (in a same manner Islam is, where you have strict rules - Sharia).

I highly doubt any one here has a clear cut answer to your situation, and for me it seems a semi-disparagin to advice go to see a doctor, like you would be a mentally ill. If somebody thinks they have, they're only deluding themselves.

I hope you find your way, but don't let that get in the way of your practice.

To quote Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, the best practioner isn't the one who has the most strict moral conduct. The best practioner is the one who does his practice.

Best
+1, best answer in my opinion

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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by gescom » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:48 am

I'm glad none of the viewpoints here were censored. I think the OP is quite brave and is doing the right thing to discuss this issue.

Ideally we're talking about the right action to take, not putting someone down. This is a forum on Ethics. I believe all viewpoints and discussion are valuable, even if it is from lower 'cyber-buddhists'. :smile:

What usually turns the mind to Buddhism is your own suffering. It's when you've had enough. If you're having a nice time in samsara then what use is Buddhism? No amount of watering things down on a forum is going to help to attract someone to Buddhism.

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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:18 am

_R_ wrote:To OP,

I would like to say, that most of these comments stem from the background of judeo-christian culture; ie. they don't necessarily reflect buddhist values, but their own upbringin in the West. As far as I am concerned, buddhism isn't about society as a whole (in a same manner Islam is, where you have strict rules - Sharia).

I highly doubt any one here has a clear cut answer to your situation, and for me it seems a semi-disparagin to advice go to see a doctor, like you would be a mentally ill. If somebody thinks they have, they're only deluding themselves.

I hope you find your way, but don't let that get in the way of your practice.

To quote Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, the best practioner isn't the one who has the most strict moral conduct. The best practioner is the one who does his practice.

Best
I didn't say to "see a doctor", nor did I say a single thing about mental health. I said to see a professional of some sort - and mentioned that that includes religious figures. Anyone trained and/or experienced helping people deal with these kinds of situations. For someone complaining about other people being sanctimonious or self righteous, this post is dripping with it.

What thing that is true, guilt shouldn't play a part I don't think, just a desire to mend wrongs and a resolution to reduce harm from the situation.
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Ayu » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:59 am

gescom wrote:I'm glad none of the viewpoints here were censored. ...
For the sake of truth: some harsh speech was removed due to the wish of the author.
But I have to say, I can't blame anybody. This topic involves harsh feelings as soon as one identifies with it. Neither I can blame the OP. It is simply a difficult situation.

Only one thing is clear: The situation is an obstacle, but it is no good reason for not performing Buddhist practice.
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Hate is too great a burden to bear.
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by _R_ » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:13 pm

Johnny, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't quote you on that, but the general vibe I got from the "advices" people gave here.

"gtfo and see a professonial."

Like, we're too good for OP, or whatever.

What I've seen happen, that when people are guilt-ridden, they're unable to practice for whatever reason. "I am too X person, my lifestyle is Y, I do Z." It doesn't matter, just do whatever you're used to. When my life was upside down, what helped me the most was the practice:

taking refuge, getting used to bodhicitta, practice, and dedicating the merit for all sentient beings.
I'm the best.

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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:38 pm

Last night I watched this movie (on Netflix )
I thought it was revelent. Sexual misconduct is a big deal in Buddhism, just in case someone wants to claim it's only Western Christian / Judeo culture that gets uptight about it....

ADULTERERS :

https://youtu.be/l6l4sRaIm3g
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:20 pm

_R_ wrote:Johnny, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't quote you on that, but the general vibe I got from the "advices" people gave here.

"gtfo and see a professonial."

Like, we're too good for OP, or whatever.
I really didn't get that vibe personally, what I saw was people asking him to own up to the situation he's in, minus a couple angry outbursts.
What I've seen happen, that when people are guilt-ridden, they're unable to practice for whatever reason. "I am too X person, my lifestyle is Y, I do Z." It doesn't matter, just do whatever you're used to. When my life was upside down, what helped me the most was the practice:

taking refuge, getting used to bodhicitta, practice, and dedicating the merit for all sentient beings.
I agree there, guilt is not particularly useful as anything but a wake-up call, and certainly shouldn't stop someone from practicing.
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:06 pm

For the record, my GTFO is not as harsh sounding in my dialect.

The proper translation for Engish speakers in other parts of the world is something along the lines, "You have to be kidding." Usually delivered with a facial expression of disbelief.

And "ass hole" is a technical term for someone who thinks about themselves first and foremost with little regard for others. More safe-for-work terms might be morally culpable, selfish, dishonest, etc. A-hole is a gruff but remarkably descriptive term that just about covers the bases when it comes to adulterers. But I also understand, harsh speech is not right speech.

A lot of the stuff does not translate.

I need to be cognizant and speak more like a Midwest news anchor.

The dude made certain commitments to his wife, and was actively betraying those commitments for what he confessed were utterly selfish reasons. His dilemma was coming clean to his wife, which would certainly hurt her, or ending his intimate relationship with his girlfriend, which would hurt her because she apparently relies on him as she battles a serious illness.

How did this problem come about? Gee. Things just happen sometimes, you know?

I dunno, when you make a commitment to someone, like marriage vows which generally involve a high degree of trust and commensurate vulnerability, is there any moral culpability in breaking them? It seems obvious to me, but I'm also mired in the conditional world that depends on promises and commitments to work properly. Life in a pre-social contract era, which Hobbes described as nasty, brutish, and short, is just not what most of us want.

But that's being too dramatic. Breakdown of the institution of marriage leading to the collapse of civilization?

:shrug:

I have no idea.

Back to the tree in the forest.

It seems clear the dude knew his wife would not be cool with him having a side piece. His capacity to love more than one person and Judeo Christian Values really have nothing directly to do with the mutual promises he and this other person made to each other.

He had apparently had an understanding with his wife that didn't include free love. Who knows though, maybe when he tells her, she'll respond with relief and tell him that she's got another lover too, and they can all live happily ever after in poly bliss.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by boda » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:14 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Last night I watched this movie (on Netflix )
I thought it was revelent. Sexual misconduct is a big deal in Buddhism, just in case someone wants to claim it's only Western Christian / Judeo culture that gets uptight about it....

ADULTERERS :

https://youtu.be/l6l4sRaIm3g
It's a film produced in the West. In the leader for the film the protagonist actually paraphrases from the Bible.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:31 pm

boda wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Last night I watched this movie (on Netflix )
I thought it was revelent. Sexual misconduct is a big deal in Buddhism, just in case someone wants to claim it's only Western Christian / Judeo culture that gets uptight about it....

ADULTERERS :

https://youtu.be/l6l4sRaIm3g
It's a film produced in the West. In the leader for the film the protagonist actually paraphrases from the Bible.
boda wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Last night I watched this movie (on Netflix )
I thought it was revelent. Sexual misconduct is a big deal in Buddhism, just in case someone wants to claim it's only Western Christian / Judeo culture that gets uptight about it....

ADULTERERS :

https://youtu.be/l6l4sRaIm3g
It's a film produced in the West. In the leader for the film the protagonist actually paraphrases from the Bible.

So what. I thought it had a lot of Buddhist overtones... :rolleye:
The husband that caught his wife cheating was normally a very kind and compassionate guy, he also made the mistake of sexual misconduct in his past, and took that into consideration. ....it's a good movie....at least that's my opinion. ...
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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:How did this problem come about? Gee. Things just happen sometimes, you know?
Many things happen that one has no control over. Adultery is not one of them. ChrisK didn't have control of the feelings and thoughts of lust and attraction to this other woman that arose when he met her/got to know her. What he did have control over is what he was to do in response to it. His response was pursuit. Because of those volitions, he is in this situation. It is simply kamma and its result. This is not a pleasant situation, but at least ChrisK can gain some wisdom from this experience.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Adultery and Being a Buddhist

Post by Punya » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:04 pm

Sexual misconduct is a big deal in Buddhism, just in case someone wants to claim it's only Western Christian / Judeo culture that gets uptight about it....
I agree the third of the five precepts, for example, includes sexual misconduct. The issue with bringing in western Christian / judeo culture is guilt and blame. In Vajrasattva practice, for example, you regret the action, resolve not to do it again and move on. Not embroil yourself in guilt.

If you hold the 5 precepts, it is simply a mechanism for steering ourselves towards wholesome rather than unwholesome actions. It is not meant to be a vantage point from which to judge others and look down on them. Others are to be viewed with compassion not judgement.

Which is not to say say the close up and personal actions of others aren’t difficult. We are only buddhists trying to follow the path, not Buddhas and I understand that you are doing the best you can KL. :consoling:
May the stupid meditators be awakened from the sleep of ignorance;
May the attacks of the logicians with their sophistries be vanquished.

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in The Rain of Wisdom

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