Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

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Joka
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Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:20 pm

This probably has been discussed ad nauseaum but I am wondering in all the many Buddhist traditions if there is ever the notion of justified war or conflict.

Is there such a thing within the Buddhist belief system?

If there isn't one must wonder about the constraints or limitations of idealistic pacifism within the rest of the world where such idealist concepts generally are not the majority rule.

I imagine for a pacifist Buddhist it is a constant struggle to reconcile those beliefs.

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Grigoris
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Are you looking for excuses? To judge others?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:Are you looking for excuses?
No, instead understanding behind thought processes.

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Malcolm
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:37 pm

Joka wrote:This probably has been discussed ad nauseaum but I am wondering in all the many Buddhist traditions if there is ever the notion of justified war or conflict.
.
The Buddha says that kingdoms have a right to defend themselves against aggressors. He also points out that people who kill each other in combat all go to hell. So kings and soldiers may, for the welfare of their kingdoms defend them with arms, but the sacrifice is much greater than merely losing one's life.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:41 pm

Certainly some level of discernment or judgement of others in this world becomes necessary concerning the act of survival.

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Grigoris
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:48 pm

Joka wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Are you looking for excuses?
No, instead understanding behind thought processes.
Which, of course, has nothing to do with what is going on behind your thought processes, right? Just those of others.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:This probably has been discussed ad nauseaum but I am wondering in all the many Buddhist traditions if there is ever the notion of justified war or conflict.
.
The Buddha says that kingdoms have a right to defend themselves against aggressors. He also points out that people who kill each other in combat all go to hell. So kings and soldiers may, for the welfare of their kingdoms defend them with arms, but the sacrifice is much greater than merely losing one's life.
I'm a bit of a Buddhist secularist where I am at a stand still in regards to an afterlife or supernatural realities. Still upon a path of self discovery in those regards.

amanitamusc
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:This probably has been discussed ad nauseaum but I am wondering in all the many Buddhist traditions if there is ever the notion of justified war or conflict.
.
The Buddha says that kingdoms have a right to defend themselves against aggressors. He also points out that people who kill each other in combat all go to hell. So kings and soldiers may, for the welfare of their kingdoms defend them with arms, but the sacrifice is much greater than merely losing one's life.
This would depend if the person killing did so as a complete karma.

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Joka wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Are you looking for excuses?
No, instead understanding behind thought processes.
Which, of course, has nothing to do with what is going on behind your thought processes, right? Just those of others.
I ask because of practical reasons regarding the world we live in that is entrenched in violence and conflict. One can't help but have deep seated questions regarding this particular subject.

I believe non-violence is the highest maximum ideal and certainly should be aspired towards as it is noble however I have doubts that nonviolence as an ideal can always be retained for every situation or environment of life as we know it as well.

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Malcolm
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:00 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:This probably has been discussed ad nauseaum but I am wondering in all the many Buddhist traditions if there is ever the notion of justified war or conflict.
.
The Buddha says that kingdoms have a right to defend themselves against aggressors. He also points out that people who kill each other in combat all go to hell. So kings and soldiers may, for the welfare of their kingdoms defend them with arms, but the sacrifice is much greater than merely losing one's life.
This would depend if the person killing did so as a complete karma.
There is that, but the Buddha does not make this distinction. He assumes warriors like violence.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

amanitamusc
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha says that kingdoms have a right to defend themselves against aggressors. He also points out that people who kill each other in combat all go to hell. So kings and soldiers may, for the welfare of their kingdoms defend them with arms, but the sacrifice is much greater than merely losing one's life.
This would depend if the person killing did so as a complete karma.
There is that, but the Buddha does not make this distinction. He assumes warriors like violence.
The Buddha intuitively knows?

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:01 am

The old adage that malice thrives when people do nothing at all or sit idly by I suppose is a big problem for me concerning pacifism and the non-aggression principle. I suppose that is why I created this thread.

More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.

binocular
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:46 am

Joka wrote:More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.
It's not clear that wars are started out of malice. Usually, it seems to be a fight for natural resources, and that fight is sometimes politicized into making it look like something more "civilized" ("fighting for democracy" and such).

Some assumptions worth looking into are:
"Those who are the victims in a war are innocent."
"Those who win a war are morally superior."


To quote myself from a post at the sister site, Dhammawheel:
binocular wrote:When it comes to a war, it's not possible to plan in advance that one will be on the winning side. This is why arguments in favor of war made later on by people who happened to end up on the winning side cannot serve as a sound basis for reasoning in favor of going to war.
When going to a war, there are only two outcomes: you could win, or you could lose; and you can't guarantee you will win.
So the question is: Are you ready to lose a war?

Do give a compelling reason for going to war even at the prospect of losing it.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 60#p415910

binocular
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:52 am

Malcolm wrote:There is that, but the Buddha does not make this distinction. He assumes warriors like violence.
With conscripts and people who join the military because it seems like the most accessible way out of poverty, the situation seems more complex.

How many people who are nowadays in the military would actually qualify as warriors, as ksatriyas? My guess is, very few.

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:02 am

binocular wrote:
Joka wrote:More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.
It's not clear that wars are started out of malice. Usually, it seems to be a fight for natural resources, and that fight is sometimes politicized into making it look like something more "civilized" ("fighting for democracy" and such).

Some assumptions worth looking into are:
"Those who are the victims in a war are innocent."
"Those who win a war are morally superior."


To quote myself from a post at the sister site, Dhammawheel:
binocular wrote:When it comes to a war, it's not possible to plan in advance that one will be on the winning side. This is why arguments in favor of war made later on by people who happened to end up on the winning side cannot serve as a sound basis for reasoning in favor of going to war.
When going to a war, there are only two outcomes: you could win, or you could lose; and you can't guarantee you will win.
So the question is: Are you ready to lose a war?

Do give a compelling reason for going to war even at the prospect of losing it.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 60#p415910
I find that the most uncivil people you will ever meet are the ones that call themselves civil. I think you're correct in your assessment of natural resources and of course when we dwell into social stratification of society the discussion then goes into usually of resource entitlements in describing who are more entitled to resources than others. In modern time we call that economics.

I don't think anybody is prepared or even willing to lose which is why often enough the vanquished choose death over a lifetime of living failure.

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Malcolm
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:32 pm

Joka wrote:The old adage that malice thrives when people do nothing at all or sit idly by I suppose is a big problem for me concerning pacifism and the non-aggression principle. I suppose that is why I created this thread.

More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.

The Buddha's approach to defeating malice was to uproot it from yourself.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:The old adage that malice thrives when people do nothing at all or sit idly by I suppose is a big problem for me concerning pacifism and the non-aggression principle. I suppose that is why I created this thread.

More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.

The Buddha's approach to defeating malice was to uproot it from yourself.
To conquer it in oneself is a great thing but still there is a wide world of other people out there that do not share those convictions or ideals.

What is a Buddhist to do say in the presence of a group of people that above all else desire power and will do anything to keep that power including all spectrums of human unspeakable acts or behaviors? Does the Buddhist sit on their hands and feet sitting idle?

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Malcolm
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:00 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:The old adage that malice thrives when people do nothing at all or sit idly by I suppose is a big problem for me concerning pacifism and the non-aggression principle. I suppose that is why I created this thread.

More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.

The Buddha's approach to defeating malice was to uproot it from yourself.
To conquer it in oneself is a great thing but still there is a wide world of other people out there that do not share those convictions or ideals.

What is a Buddhist to do say in the presence of a group of people that above all else desire power and will do anything to keep that power including all spectrums of human unspeakable acts or behaviors? Does the Buddhist sit on their hands and feet sitting idle?
That very much depends. In most cases, I think Buddhists will flee such a situation or resist nonviolently— for example, Tibet
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Joka
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

The Buddha's approach to defeating malice was to uproot it from yourself.
To conquer it in oneself is a great thing but still there is a wide world of other people out there that do not share those convictions or ideals.

What is a Buddhist to do say in the presence of a group of people that above all else desire power and will do anything to keep that power including all spectrums of human unspeakable acts or behaviors? Does the Buddhist sit on their hands and feet sitting idle?
That very much depends. In most cases, I think Buddhists will flee such a situation or resist nonviolently— for example, Tibet
Flee to where? Where in the world does sanctuary from all of this exist?

The type of world we are living in makes nonviolent resistance either impotent for change or an impossibility. Like I said before, nonviolence and nonaggression is a noble maximum highest ideal to aspire towards but I don't think it is an option for every environment, scenario, or situation.

This leads me to believe that sometimes war or fighting is necessary and can be justified.

Another reason I created this thread because in ancient past Buddhist warrior monks like the Sohei fought very passionately for what they believed in.

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Malcolm
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:37 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
To conquer it in oneself is a great thing but still there is a wide world of other people out there that do not share those convictions or ideals.

What is a Buddhist to do say in the presence of a group of people that above all else desire power and will do anything to keep that power including all spectrums of human unspeakable acts or behaviors? Does the Buddhist sit on their hands and feet sitting idle?
That very much depends. In most cases, I think Buddhists will flee such a situation or resist nonviolently— for example, Tibet
Flee to where? Where in the world does sanctuary from all of this exist?

The type of world we are living in makes nonviolent resistance either impotent for change or an impossibility.
You have to be kidding. Nonviolence is the only avenue for resistance against oppression unless you are prepared to destroy whole economies.


This leads me to believe that sometimes war or fighting is necessary and can be justified.
As I said, Buddha stated that virtuous nations have a right to defend themselves.


Another reason I created this thread because in ancient past Buddhist warrior monks like the Sohei fought very passionately for what they believed in.
This is a Japanese corruption of Buddhadharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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