Karma rebirth predators

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Odin
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Karma rebirth predators

Post by Odin » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:55 pm

If karma exists. What happens to wolves or other predators that have to intentionally harm other creatures to survive? They have a reason in the biological sphere that they keep populations down and thus keep the food supply from being entirely eaten.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:08 pm

Odin wrote:If karma exists. What happens to wolves or other predators that have to intentionally harm other creatures to survive? They have a reason in the biological sphere that they keep populations down and thus keep the food supply from being entirely eaten.
They go to the other lower realms or stay animals, presumably. This is one of the reasons a precious human birth is what it is, once you are involved in the lower realms it is hard to get out. Ecological balance et.c has little to do with the results of it, from a Buddhist point of view. Animals do sometimes act altruistically, and of course something like a housecat may do less killing than usual, but generally carnivorous animals are a lot more helpless. They have to generate bad karma to survive, and are unable to conceive of much else.
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Odin
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Odin » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Odin wrote:If karma exists. What happens to wolves or other predators that have to intentionally harm other creatures to survive? They have a reason in the biological sphere that they keep populations down and thus keep the food supply from being entirely eaten.
They go to the other lower realms or stay animals, presumably. This is one of the reasons a precious human birth is what it is, once you are involved in the lower realms it is hard to get out. Ecological balance et.c has little to do with the results of it, from a Buddhist point of view. Animals do sometimes act altruistically, and of course, something like a housecat may do less killing than usual, but generally carnivorous animals are a lot more helpless. They have to generate bad karma to survive and are unable to conceive of much else.
Would a panda be an enlighten carnivore? As his body was made for eating meat but switched to eating primarily plants.
What about herbivores they eat insects intentionally or unintentionally so do human vegans as sometimes insects parts get into things like peanut butter.
How do you convince people who believe only in science and philosophy that karma exists?

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:35 pm

Odin wrote:
Would a panda be an enlighten carnivore? As his body was made for eating meat but switched to eating primarily plants.
What about herbivores they eat insects intentionally or unintentionally so do human vegans as sometimes insects parts get into things like peanut butter.
Unintentional actions don't generate karma, as I understand it. A Panda would just do less intentional killing than a predator, how that would work out technically for the Panda I have no idea.
How do you convince people who believe only in science and philosophy that karma exists?
IMO, don't bother, it's not important to convince people.
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Miroku » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:55 am

IMO they already do believe in Karma. One of the basic laws is the law of action and reaction. But they don't apply it so much to their actions and mental states as buddhists do. I would let them be. Unless they ask for expalantion, don't push anything on them, it will do more harm than good.

Also unfortunately animals are destined to go to lower realms, due to the amount of negativity they commit. However even in their lives they do some good deeds, like taking care of each other in their pack, or taking care and sacraficing for their offsprings, which means that one day even they will eventually get the chance to be reborn in higher realms and perhaps do some good. :woohoo: :D
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Jyotish
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Jyotish » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:20 am

Karma is unerring. Shit may we use this precious human life fully.

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by LastLegend » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:29 am

Grow apple will have apples. Who can dispute that?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by binocular » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:09 am

Odin wrote:If karma exists. What happens to wolves or other predators that have to intentionally harm other creatures to survive?
Do predatory animals kill other beings with the intention to harm them?
Do cows eat grass with the intention to harm it?

It's not clear whether the concept of "intending to harm" applies to animals.

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:38 pm

binocular wrote:
Odin wrote:If karma exists. What happens to wolves or other predators that have to intentionally harm other creatures to survive?
Do predatory animals kill other beings with the intention to harm them?
Do cows eat grass with the intention to harm it?

It's not clear whether the concept of "intending to harm" applies to animals.

https://www.quora.com/Do-animals-have-m ... n-the-harm
;)
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by binocular » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:23 pm

tiagolps wrote:
binocular wrote:Do predatory animals kill other beings with the intention to harm them?
Do cows eat grass with the intention to harm it?
It's not clear whether the concept of "intending to harm" applies to animals.
https://www.quora.com/Do-animals-have-m ... n-the-harm
It's still not clear whether they actually "intend harm". Perhaps "intending harm" is merely a human projection to what is going on. Simply because harm is one of the results of an action, doesn't mean that harm was intended.

Once, our cat struck my father, in what seemed like an act of retribution. My father teased her at first, she clearly didn't like it; she went away for a second and then came back, jumped on the sofa to be able to reach him and struck him with her paw. I am sure she acted intentionally, but I am not sure it was with the intention to harm. Maybe it was to settle the score or let him know that she doesn't appreciate being teased.

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by smcj » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:46 pm

A being can be incarnated as predator one lifetime, and prey the next. It's not that complicated.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:12 pm

smcj wrote:A being can be incarnated as predator one lifetime, and prey the next. It's not that complicated.
Of course it is complicated. In fact it's so complicated that no one can explain it.

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Vasana » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:53 am

I remember reading/hearing that in many cases, a predator wouldn't accumulate the same level of karma for killing than a human would due to the biological need. The satisfaction for completing the act isn't fully present for the majority of animals.
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:54 am

Odin wrote:If karma exists. What happens to wolves or other predators that have to intentionally harm other creatures to survive? They have a reason in the biological sphere that they keep populations down and thus keep the food supply from being entirely eaten.
Humans intentionally harm other creatures to "survive" too.

For a karma to be complete a number of factors are taken into account: motivation of the action, extent of the action, object of the action and whether the subject feels remorse or joy regarding the action.
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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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Odin
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Odin » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:47 pm

Opposites attract negative and positive good and bad you can't have one and not the other. How can predators be causing themselves bad karma when they are just following nature in keeping populations from overflowing in the biosphere. I am making the argument that killing other animals could be seen as a necessity a normal biological function. Like how or who knows you created bad karma so then you get what you sowed?
Can you still be a Buddhist but have doubts about karma? Supposedly from the book "what makes you not a Buddhist" All you have to believe in is the four seals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Dharma_Seals
Does a psychopath not experience bad karma because they lack a conscience?
Does anyone know of a good book or article debating the existence of karma?

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:04 am

Odin wrote:Opposites attract negative and positive good and bad you can't have one and not the other. How can predators be causing themselves bad karma when they are just following nature in keeping populations from overflowing in the biosphere. I am making the argument that killing other animals could be seen as a necessity a normal biological function.
It's normal, and necessary to maintain ecological balance. Religion doesn't concern itself with ecological balance, typically. People tend to focus on themselves.
Like how or who knows you created bad karma so then you get what you sowed?
No one actually knows, beyond broad abstracts anyway. Humans are a social species and so have a built-in sense of fairness, reciprocity, etc. Naturally this develops in religious narratives to offer meaning and social structure.
Can you still be a Buddhist but have doubts about karma?
Of course, anyone who puts more than two minutes of thought into the subject should have doubts.
Does a psychopath not experience bad karma because they lack a conscience?

Good question. No one knows.

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:11 am

Odin wrote:Opposites attract negative and positive good and bad you can't have one and not the other. How can predators be causing themselves bad karma when they are just following nature in keeping populations from overflowing in the biosphere. I am making the argument that killing other animals could be seen as a necessity a normal biological function. Like how or who knows you created bad karma so then you get what you sowed?

There is no such idea as a moral imperative to create ecological balance by killing within Buddhism, that is a worldly position which may have some merit within it's own context, but has little to do with the question from a Buddhist standpoint. The very catch 22 of what you descrtibe - killing being responsible for ecological balance is precisely why it sucks to be a carnivorous animal, or be eaten by one. That sort of "damned if ya do damned if ya don't" type of scenario is what makes samsara samsara.
Does anyone know of a good book or article debating the existence of karma?
Lol, it's a Buddhist site.

I would recommend this book if you want to read up more:

http://www.shambhala.com/karma.html
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boda
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:44 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:The very catch 22 of what you descrtibe - killing being responsible for ecological balance is precisely why it sucks to be a carnivorous animal, or be eaten by one. That sort of "damned if ya do damned if ya don't" type of scenario is what makes samsara samsara.
I believe he's suggesting that you're not dammed if ya do. It would seem nonsensical to think otherwise, being that a carnivore would be trapped in an infinite regress if they were damned if they did.

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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:54 am

boda wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:The very catch 22 of what you descrtibe - killing being responsible for ecological balance is precisely why it sucks to be a carnivorous animal, or be eaten by one. That sort of "damned if ya do damned if ya don't" type of scenario is what makes samsara samsara.
I believe he's suggesting that you're not dammed if ya do. It would seem nonsensical to think otherwise, being that a carnivore would be trapped in an infinite regress if they were damned if they did.

According to the traditional presentation, they -are- almost trapped in infinite regress, that's why it's said to be so hard to get out of the lower realms. So the only argument to the contrary is one that substitutes the Buddhist idea of merit for the worldly concept of ecological balance, something which an animal can't intend in the first place - animals don't kill with the intention to create ecological balance. Karma doesn't count with unintended circumstances, positive or negative...which makes the position of something like a carnivorous animal a really tough one.
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Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Boomerang » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:22 am

Losal Samten posted a useful quotation about the karma of animals.

19. Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior

It is said, "Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior".
When one is born in the hells, the three notions will appear*
Therefore regret will arise and virtuous attitude will originate.
For that reason one will be liberated [from the hells].
Also the pretas have a clear awareness and are therefore equal to the former.
Since animals are deluded, they have only sensations of happiness and suffering,
But perceive nothing else. Therefore, if they leave their current body,
They will go through the other lower realms.
For that reason they are considered especially inferior.
The meaning is to be known in this way.


Carnivores kill sentient beings, and they probably don't even purify their karma a little bit through regret. Maybe some smart animals like elephants or apes regret their actions every once in a while, but generally that's not how animals are seen. It's truly a miserable rebirth.
Odin wrote:Opposites attract negative and positive good and bad you can't have one and not the other. How can predators be causing themselves bad karma when they are just following nature in keeping populations from overflowing in the biosphere.
By killing sentient beings, they sow the seeds of future suffering.
I am making the argument that killing other animals could be seen as a necessity a normal biological function.
This is the type of thing Buddha was talking about when he spoke of unfortunate rebirths. Carnivores have no choice but to die, or create negative karma. This is why a precious human rebirth is so valuable.

On the positive side, animals can create a bit of good karma by giving their children care and affection.
Like how or who knows you created bad karma so then you get what you sowed?
This is what the Buddha taught.
Can you still be a Buddhist but have doubts about karma?
It's common for people to be agnostic or doubtful about karma. Buddha would not approve, but hey, we all have to start somewhere. It would be good if you made an effort to accept karma. When you read some old Buddhist texts, those who reject karma are spoken of in the same breath as non-Buddhists.
Supposedly from the book "what makes you not a Buddhist" All you have to believe in is the four seals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Dharma_Seals
If there were two more dharma seals, they would be rebirth and karma.
Does a psychopath not experience bad karma because they lack a conscience?
If a psychopath does negative actions, they create negative karma just like anyone else.
Does anyone know of a good book or article debating the existence of karma?
Doubting karma is harmful. A forum full of Buddhists won't want to inflict harm unto you.

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