Karma rebirth predators

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2032
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:14 am

One of the ways karma ripens is as a habit. If a being like an animal is born compelled to kill, it is because they have killed in the past. One of my masters has said that predator animals can be born like that because in past lives the were well trained soldiers who practiced killing, and became experts at killing and became so good at it that in future lives they ended up being born with bodies made suitable for killing.

Jyotish
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:54 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Jyotish » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:28 am

View of no karma or doubt in Karma is also a view. And it is one thing to hold views and another thing to understand what buddha or the Buddhist masters say. So one can not believe in Karma if one wants to but the main point is to clearly understand that buddha and the masters emphatically declare karma as The relative truth and this is a part of right view. The better one understands karma and trusts it father the path. Hindus and joins also have karma but their understanding is lacking in many sense.

Just because one doesn't believe in it doesn't mean one should distort what buddha said. And obviously arrogance is a part of Western culture. First superior Abraham's religions now superior science superior intellectual capacity. Clearly can we trust folks who brought complex things like Yantra yoga? Can we trust masters of subtle body? Can we trust those who can give DI? Really phowa?

Even if it is a choice of belief rather than logically understanding it as truth and slowly realizing it, the choice is listen to Abrahamic and materialistic "nonsense" OR listen to buddha. It is a choice. No hatred intended! My mom doesn't understand radio waves let alone see it if that is even possible yet she trusts science given the consistency. Given the consistency of what practice brings about can we trust buddha.

And how difficult it is it to logically see karma? Guys, I am not from the west but seriously there are western Buddhists like so called advanced Buddhists arguing against karma and rebirth. That's nuts man. How difficult it is to see it as a comparatively accurate and logical world view ?

Jyotish
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:54 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Jyotish » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:42 am

Also thanks to many wonderful insights here!

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:48 am

Jyotish wrote:And how difficult it is it to logically see karma? Guys, I am not from the west but seriously there are western Buddhists like so called advanced Buddhists arguing against karma and rebirth. That's nuts man. How difficult it is to see it as a comparatively accurate and logical world view ?
Extremely. Not speaking as an advanced Buddhist however.

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:59 am

Boomerang wrote:Losal Samten posted a useful quotation about the karma of animals.

19. Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior


Curious. We regard them as inferior yet we are the only species on earth that is so maladaptive that we destroy our own environment, and will most likely make ourselves extinct, along with all the other countless species we've killed to date.

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:10 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
boda wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:The very catch 22 of what you descrtibe - killing being responsible for ecological balance is precisely why it sucks to be a carnivorous animal, or be eaten by one. That sort of "damned if ya do damned if ya don't" type of scenario is what makes samsara samsara.
I believe he's suggesting that you're not dammed if ya do. It would seem nonsensical to think otherwise, being that a carnivore would be trapped in an infinite regress if they were damned if they did.
According to the traditional presentation, they -are- almost trapped in infinite regress, that's why it's said to be so hard to get out of the lower realms. So the only argument to the contrary is one that substitutes the Buddhist idea of merit for the worldly concept of ecological balance, something which an animal can't intend in the first place - animals don't kill with the intention to create ecological balance. Karma doesn't count with unintended circumstances, positive or negative...which makes the position of something like a carnivorous animal a really tough one.
A modern description for this is anthropomorphism.

From wikipedia:
In psychology, the first empirical study of anthropomorphism was conducted in 1944 by Fritz Heider and Marianne Simmel. In the first part of this experiment, the researchers showed a 2-and-a-half minute long animation of several shapes moving around on the screen in varying directions at various speeds. When subjects were asked to describe what they saw, they gave detailed accounts of the intentions and personalities of the shapes. For instance, the large triangle was characterized as a bully, chasing the other two shapes until they could trick the large triangle and escape. The researchers concluded that when people see objects making motions for which there is no obvious cause, they view these objects as intentional agents.

Bristollad
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Bristollad » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:12 am

boda wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
boda wrote: I believe he's suggesting that you're not dammed if ya do. It would seem nonsensical to think otherwise, being that a carnivore would be trapped in an infinite regress if they were damned if they did.
According to the traditional presentation, they -are- almost trapped in infinite regress, that's why it's said to be so hard to get out of the lower realms. So the only argument to the contrary is one that substitutes the Buddhist idea of merit for the worldly concept of ecological balance, something which an animal can't intend in the first place - animals don't kill with the intention to create ecological balance. Karma doesn't count with unintended circumstances, positive or negative...which makes the position of something like a carnivorous animal a really tough one.
A modern description for this is anthropomorphism.

From wikipedia:
In psychology, the first empirical study of anthropomorphism was conducted in 1944 by Fritz Heider and Marianne Simmel. In the first part of this experiment, the researchers showed a 2-and-a-half minute long animation of several shapes moving around on the screen in varying directions at various speeds. When subjects were asked to describe what they saw, they gave detailed accounts of the intentions and personalities of the shapes. For instance, the large triangle was characterized as a bully, chasing the other two shapes until they could trick the large triangle and escape. The researchers concluded that when people see objects making motions for which there is no obvious cause, they view these objects as intentional agents.
Are you suggesting that, for instance, a cat stalking, catching, killing and eating a bird or mouse acts without intention and has no sense of satisfaction? If that is the case, then you seem to be describing something without mind that is simply following a program, a biological robot. Yet studies of many animals show that they have self-recognition, see http://www.animalcognition.org/2015/04/ ... rror-test/

As for the study you mentioned, this seems as much a study of pattern recognition - the ability to spot a pattern and therefore predict a result. I wonder if the shapes were set up to move completely randomly or whether their movements were planned ahead by the researchers (as it was animation - it would seem to be the latter). This ability to be able to predict a result (even if by erroneously ascribing personality to inanimate things) has a clear evolutionary advantage - from a pragmatic point of view, it doesn't matter what you think happens inside the function box if for a given input you can accurately predict the output.

Jyotish
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:54 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Jyotish » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:02 am

boda wrote:
Boomerang wrote:Losal Samten posted a useful quotation about the karma of animals.

19. Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior


Curious. We regard them as inferior yet we are the only species on earth that is so maladaptive that we destroy our own environment, and will most likely make ourselves extinct, along with all the other countless species we've killed to date.



Karma will take care of whoever is doing such action. And in many ways it applies to many of us thus we have to accumulate merits if we are to avoid the trap And also at the same time engage in dharma. Why the confusion about the word 'inferior? Clearly they are inferior in that they don't even have the capacity to do anything about it let alone the fact they don't understand it. It's not inferior like how the Genesis says animals are made for superior humans. Does this silence your concern with the word? Unless I misunderstood what you are saying here. Do you think whoever said such a insightful comment on difference between animals, pretas and hell beings doesn't understand this?

Jyotish
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:54 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Jyotish » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:07 am

boda wrote:
Jyotish wrote:And how difficult it is it to logically see karma? Guys, I am not from the west but seriously there are western Buddhists like so called advanced Buddhists arguing against karma and rebirth. That's nuts man. How difficult it is to see it as a comparatively accurate and logical world view ?
Extremely. Not speaking as an advanced Buddhist however.

what part of the karma is difficult to logically see? The higher principles of dependent origination obviously are difficult for beginners like myself but what part are you looking at? Rebirth? Realms? .

May I ask the question about trust? Is it difficult to trust the Buddha than silly scientists or materialists or whoever that deny karma? Obviously the point is to see it oneself than believe but it helps in the beginning.

Tiago Simões
Posts: 952
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:55 pm

Jyotish wrote:The higher principles of dependent origination obviously are difficult for beginners like myself
Karma and dependent origination are very closely related concepts, if you understand one, you will understand the other.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

Jyotish
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:54 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Jyotish » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:05 pm

Ya I meant to say karma but just wanted to show to show connection. By brighter principles of karma I mean things like Guru's taking others karmas or one person be Ingvar an Emanation of more than one midstream. Mad complex would rather not try to understand. Not necessary to understand either for now for me.

User avatar
Boomerang
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:34 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Boomerang » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:57 pm

boda wrote:
Boomerang wrote:Losal Samten posted a useful quotation about the karma of animals.

19. Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior


Curious. We regard them as inferior yet we are the only species on earth that is so maladaptive that we destroy our own environment, and will most likely make ourselves extinct, along with all the other countless species we've killed to date.


Buddhism regards them as inferior in the sense that they have less capacity to practice dharma. A human serial killer can become an arhat. A carnivorous animal can't.

Buddhists have compassion for all beings, including animals. It seems that you have a lot of compassion for animals, and that's good. However, you needn't grasp at straws in an attempt to defend the honor of animals. Buddhism doesn't say animals are inferior out of pride. It says so because samsara is unsatisfactory, and animal rebirth especially so.
"All the suffering of the lower realms, whatever difficulty and unhappiness we may experience as human beings, as well as every other possible suffering of the three realms of existence, have their origin in cherishing ourselves more than others."

Jeff H
Posts: 879
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:56 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Jeff H » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:35 pm

My understanding of Buddhist faith is that it is more akin to “reasonable confidence” than its usual western connotation of “blind obedience”. Although I can’t prove karma or rebirth, for me they are they are two of the most compelling aspects of Buddhism. This is because they can’t be disproven, they make good sense, and, most importantly, they are very useful.

The logic of karma for me is “intentional causality”: whatever I think, say, and do manifestly shapes the world I experience. As a human, that basic principle provides me with valuable guidance. To be sure, I can easily think it through to a point where I can no longer see the logic or detailed operation of karma. But that in no way diminishes its practical value for getting me through the day in what Alex Berzin calls the “safe direction of refuge”.

The fact is, I personally can’t make sense of how karma operates in any of the five non-human realms. Luckily I don’t have to, because I’m human. I believe in it quite strongly in this realm and I have confidence that realized beings see how it works outside this realm.

Kunzang Pelden’s commentary on The Way of the Bodhisattva, based on the teachings he received from Patrul Rinpoche, addresses exactly this issue with regard to Shantideva’s chapter 4, verse 21.
Speaking about descent to the hell realms in 4:21, Shantideva wrote:And mere experience of such pain
Does not result in being freed from it.
For in the very suffering of such states,
More evil will occur, and then in great abundance.
Commenting on that, Kunzang Pelden wrote:Generally speaking, manifest phenomena may be assessed by means of valid perception; hidden phenomena are known through valid inference; and extremely hidden phenomena, such as the karmic principle of cause and effect, are known on the authority of the Buddha’s teaching. It is said that it is possible for the karmic principle to be logically established. And of the four principles of reasoning (the principle of causal efficiency, the principle of dependency, the principle of nature, and the principle of logical coherence), it is the fourth that is invoked here. Be that as it may, if beings who are in hell (the place in which their karma has fructified) also accumulate karma while they are there –- which will then be experienced in due sequence -– it follows that there can be no chance of liberation from such a state. Personally, I do not see how this can be so and therefore respectfully request the learned to consider well what might be Shantideva’s intended meaning here.
The Nectar of Manjushri’s Speech, p.152.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:18 pm

Bristollad wrote:Are you suggesting that, for instance, a cat stalking, catching, killing and eating a bird or mouse acts without intention and has no sense of satisfaction?
I'm suggesting that it's a normal tendency for us to ascribe human characteristics where they don't actually exist. I'm suggesting that trying to overcome this tendency will help us see the world more rationally. Rationality is good because it can make us less maladaptive and less susceptible to manipulation by others.

For instance, it doesn't make any rational sense to claim that carnivores are trapped in an infinite moral regress. Is killing 'socially acceptable' within cooperative groups of carnivores? Of course it is, but to even think this is anthropamophic. Carnivorous animals probably don't ponder socially acceptable standards of behavior. Do we observe a progression of moral depravity (in the human sense) within the lifespans of carnivores? No, so why would there be a negative progression in the next life?
If that is the case, then you seem to be describing something without mind that is simply following a program, a biological robot. Yet studies of many animals show that they have self-recognition, see http://www.animalcognition.org/2015/04/ ... rror-test/.
How do you distinguish a biological robot from an non-biological robot? or are you suggesting that there cannot be such a thing as a biological robot?
As for the study you mentioned, this seems as much a study of pattern recognition - the ability to spot a pattern and therefore predict a result. I wonder if the shapes were set up to move completely randomly or whether their movements were planned ahead by the researchers (as it was animation - it would seem to be the latter). This ability to be able to predict a result (even if by erroneously ascribing personality to inanimate things) has a clear evolutionary advantage - from a pragmatic point of view, it doesn't matter what you think happens inside the function box if for a given input you can accurately predict the output.
Don't need to attribute human characteristics for accurate prediction. Indeed accurate prediction is less likely when attributing false attributes, which is the essential point.

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:29 pm

Jyotish wrote:
boda wrote:
Boomerang wrote:Losal Samten posted a useful quotation about the karma of animals.

19. Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior


Curious. We regard them as inferior yet we are the only species on earth that is so maladaptive that we destroy our own environment, and will most likely make ourselves extinct, along with all the other countless species we've killed to date.


Karma will take care of whoever is doing such action. And in many ways it applies to many of us thus we have to accumulate merits if we are to avoid the trap And also at the same time engage in dharma. Why the confusion about the word 'inferior? Clearly they are inferior in that they don't even have the capacity to do anything about it let alone the fact they don't understand it.

Any half-informed individual today knows that the way people live today is not sustainable. We know that. Are we doing enough to live sustainably? No. What's worse is that we understand yet are still incapable of doing enough about it.

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:38 pm

Jyotish wrote:
boda wrote:
Jyotish wrote:And how difficult it is it to logically see karma? Guys, I am not from the west but seriously there are western Buddhists like so called advanced Buddhists arguing against karma and rebirth. That's nuts man. How difficult it is to see it as a comparatively accurate and logical world view ?
Extremely. Not speaking as an advanced Buddhist however.
what part of the karma is difficult to logically see?
See some of my other posts in this topic.
May I ask the question about trust?
Faith is a different question. You asked about a logical view.
Is it difficult to trust the Buddha than silly scientists or materialists or whoever that deny karma?
I don't know the Buddha, any silly scientists, or philosophical materialists.
Obviously the point is to see it oneself than believe but it helps in the beginning.
How does it help?

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Boomerang wrote:A human serial killer can become an arhat.
Do you have a doctrinal reference to back this up?
However, you needn't grasp at straws in an attempt to defend the honor of animals.
More anthropomorphism. I doubt animals care what you think about their honor.
Buddhism doesn't say animals are inferior out of pride. It says so because samsara is unsatisfactory, and animal rebirth especially so.
From a moral standpoint, rebirth as a gentle herbivore would be superior, by human standards. A sheep doesn't have the capacity to wage war, destroy it's habitat, or become a serial killer. But on the other hand, a sheep doesn't have much capacity to acquire merit. Or to put it accurately, a sheep doesn't have the capacity to develop human merit. Everything is evaluated by human values, for humans. See how that works?

User avatar
Boomerang
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:34 am

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Boomerang » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:18 pm

boda wrote:
Boomerang wrote:A human serial killer can become an arhat.
Do you have a doctrinal reference to back this up?
However, you needn't grasp at straws in an attempt to defend the honor of animals.
More anthropomorphism. I doubt animals care what you think about their honor.
Buddhism doesn't say animals are inferior out of pride. It says so because samsara is unsatisfactory, and animal rebirth especially so.
From a moral standpoint, rebirth as a gentle herbivore would be superior, by human standards. A sheep doesn't have the capacity to wage war, destroy it's habitat, or become a serial killer. But on the other hand, a sheep doesn't have much capacity to acquire merit. Or to put it accurately, a sheep doesn't have the capacity to develop human merit. Everything is evaluated by human values, for humans. See how that works?
In the sravaka tradition, Angulimala was a serial killer who became an arhat. And in the Tibetan tradition, Milarepa was a mass-murderer who became a fully enlightened Buddha. Now that you mention it, it is possible for nagas to become enlightened, and they are technically animals. But they're just as intelligent as humans.
From a moral standpoint, rebirth as a gentle herbivore would be superior, by human standards. A sheep doesn't have the capacity to wage war, destroy it's habitat, or become a serial killer. But on the other hand, a sheep doesn't have much capacity to acquire merit. Or to put it accurately, a sheep doesn't have the capacity to develop human merit. Everything is evaluated by human values, for humans. See how that works?
It's true that Buddhism is taught by humans for humans. I'm not sure I see the larger message you're trying to communicate.
"All the suffering of the lower realms, whatever difficulty and unhappiness we may experience as human beings, as well as every other possible suffering of the three realms of existence, have their origin in cherishing ourselves more than others."

Tiago Simões
Posts: 952
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:35 pm

boda wrote:From a moral standpoint, rebirth as a gentle herbivore would be superior, by human standards. A sheep doesn't have the capacity to wage war, destroy it's habitat, or become a serial killer. But on the other hand, a sheep doesn't have much capacity to acquire merit. Or to put it accurately, a sheep doesn't have the capacity to develop human merit. Everything is evaluated by human values, for humans. See how that works?
Being reborn a sheep, means we committed non-virtuous actions. A sheep can accumulate merit if it's exposed to dharma, no other way, how else? Sheeps can't meditate, can't offer much of anything, sheeps can't do much...
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Karma rebirth predators

Post by boda » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:52 pm

Boomerang wrote:A human serial killer can become an arhat.
boda wrote:Do you have a doctrinal reference to back this up?
In the sravaka tradition, Angulimala was a serial killer who became an arhat.
That is one bizarre story.
boda wrote:From a moral standpoint, rebirth as a gentle herbivore would be superior, by human standards. A sheep doesn't have the capacity to wage war, destroy it's habitat, or become a serial killer. But on the other hand, a sheep doesn't have much capacity to acquire merit. Or to put it accurately, a sheep doesn't have the capacity to develop human merit. Everything is evaluated by human values, for humans. See how that works?
It's true that Buddhism is taught by humans for humans. I'm not sure I see the larger message you're trying to communicate.
Basically that the universe doesn't conform to our religious narratives.

Locked

Return to “Ethical Conduct”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests