Is suicide OK?

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Jesse
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Jesse » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:06 am

Grigoris wrote:In my 20 something years as a psychologist and social worker I have yet to meet somebody that has attempted to commit suicide that has not regretted their action. Why? Because mainly because their decision to commit suicide was always based in a despair that did not allow them to see the possibility of change. In almost every single case, after the failed attempt, circumstances changed and allowed the person to live in a relative peace, but if the attempt had succeeded...

Decisions to suicide are rarely made from within a clear and objective state of mind.
I would argue most people with mental illness do not actually want to commit suicide. They in actuality want help, they want to feel better. Yet they are at a total lack in how to achieve this. I know this well from personal experience.
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:21 am

Jesse wrote:
Grigoris wrote:In my 20 something years as a psychologist and social worker I have yet to meet somebody that has attempted to commit suicide that has not regretted their action. Why? Because mainly because their decision to commit suicide was always based in a despair that did not allow them to see the possibility of change. In almost every single case, after the failed attempt, circumstances changed and allowed the person to live in a relative peace, but if the attempt had succeeded...

Decisions to suicide are rarely made from within a clear and objective state of mind.
I would argue most people with mental illness do not actually want to commit suicide. They in actuality want help, they want to feel better. Yet they are at a total lack in how to achieve this. I know this well from personal experience.
I agree, but sometimes they accidentally manage to pull it off.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Jesse
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Jesse » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:59 am

Grigoris wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Grigoris wrote:In my 20 something years as a psychologist and social worker I have yet to meet somebody that has attempted to commit suicide that has not regretted their action. Why? Because mainly because their decision to commit suicide was always based in a despair that did not allow them to see the possibility of change. In almost every single case, after the failed attempt, circumstances changed and allowed the person to live in a relative peace, but if the attempt had succeeded...

Decisions to suicide are rarely made from within a clear and objective state of mind.
I would argue most people with mental illness do not actually want to commit suicide. They in actuality want help, they want to feel better. Yet they are at a total lack in how to achieve this. I know this well from personal experience.
I agree, but sometimes they accidentally manage to pull it off.
Which is something unfortunate. All of my arguments thus far have been made from the standpoint of assisted suicide in cases where it would reduce suffering in actuality. People with incurable cancer with only months to live, and who are in pain so severe that it's unbearable. Which isn't too uncommon.

In fact I was just reading about this the other day, I believe Switzerland is one of the few countries with a very open policy towards euthanasia. It's become so widely known that people now refer to the process as 'Going to Switzerland.'

In my experience, people who are truly committed to suicide do not make much of a fuss about it. One day out of the blue, they just do it.

People who make a big fuss want help, they need acceptance/compassion, and they want/need help. Which is why when anyone talks about being suicidal, they should be given help immediately. Often times people do not know how to respond to such comments, and either become angry, or distant, and the person usually takes it as 'nobody gives a shit anyway', which furthers their suicidal ideation, and self-pity. It's a pretty awful part of reality.
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:42 pm

boda wrote:
Queequeg wrote:It saddens and frightens me to consider how materialism has prevailed and comes to define everything, as religion and philosophy retreat.
Materialism is philosophy.
I'm not sure. In some cases it is. In other it's a set of assumptions and little more, but I guess even that could be a philosophy.
The few instances where materialism was taken to its extremes in the 20th c. were pretty horrific.
I'm wondering what these extremes you refer to are.
[/quote]

I think one was Nazism. Stalin's Soviet Union, Khmer Rouge, PRC. USA...
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Kaccāni
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Kaccāni » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:07 pm

Jesse wrote:To actually live you need to be able to let go of life.
You appear to mix concept of life with actually living equivocally in this sentence. That creates confusion. Because we live, we engage in this conversation, independent from concepts of life. I agree with you that concepts of life are the source of many problems. Life isn't, it's the cause for the contingency that enables you in the first place, no matter how you view it. Without life, you wouldn't be able to disregard or hate life. Hating life, or experiencing pain, is also life.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Tolya M » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:57 pm

It depends on who, how, why, etc. If this is a wordling completely lost in prapanca it is not OK. If you are standing on the Noble Part but suffer from an incurable disease - maybe. Depends who and how cares after you for example. This may be an opportunity for him to gain merit. One needs to analize many factors to answer this question.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by boda » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:36 pm

Queequeg wrote:
boda wrote:
Queequeg wrote:The few instances where materialism was taken to its extremes in the 20th c. were pretty horrific.
I'm wondering what these extremes you refer to are.
I think one was Nazism. Stalin's Soviet Union, Khmer Rouge, PRC. USA...
This is off-topic so I'll be brief and only address the first, and perhaps most morally repugnant, instance you mention.

The central dogma of Aryan superiority in nazis ideology espoused by officials throughout the party was largely pseudo-religious. According to Hitler, the Aryan race was the “master” race, created as “God’s highest handiwork”, the other races (Jewish, Black, Slav, etc) were literally “sub-human”.

Anyway, I can't being to imagine your thinking on this issue, and I'm very curious. I'd be interested if you were to start a new topic on it.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:41 pm

The truth is though, that the idea that suicide can end suffering is only true within a materialistic-nihilist philosophical framework.

If you believe in rebirth then you would have to accept the "fact" that stopping your current pain/suffering, is not going to put an end to your future pain/suffering, and might actually compound it.
Last edited by Grigoris on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:50 pm

boda wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
boda wrote: I'm wondering what these extremes you refer to are.
I think one was Nazism. Stalin's Soviet Union, Khmer Rouge, PRC. USA...
This is off-topic so I'll be brief and only address the first, and perhaps most morally repugnant, instance you mention.

The central dogma of Aryan superiority in nazis ideology espoused by officials throughout the party was largely pseudo-religious. According to Hitler, the Aryan race was the “master” race, created as “God’s highest handiwork”, the other races (Jewish, Black, Slav, etc) were literally “sub-human”.

Anyway, I can't being to imagine your thinking on this issue, and I'm very curious. I'd be interested if you were to start a new topic on it.
There isn't much thinking on this issue. Its not a subject I have any particular conviction on. You asked, I answered, and your response is interesting and well taken. If you want to expand on why Nazism was not a materialist ideology, I am open to edification.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by boda » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:The truth is though, that the idea that suicide can end suffering is only true within a materialistic-nihilist philosophical framework.

If you believe in rebirth then you would have to accept the "fact" that stopping your current pain/suffering, is not going to put an end to your future pain/suffering, and might actually compound it.
I doubt many of the unfortunate folks who contemplate suicide because of their unbearable pain delve deeply into philosophical frameworks of any sort. Regardless of their religious beliefs, or philosophical frameworks, they just want the pain to stop.

In this light I think it would be fairer to say that this degree of pain tests a persons convictions, merely.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:20 pm

boda wrote:
Grigoris wrote:The truth is though, that the idea that suicide can end suffering is only true within a materialistic-nihilist philosophical framework.

If you believe in rebirth then you would have to accept the "fact" that stopping your current pain/suffering, is not going to put an end to your future pain/suffering, and might actually compound it.
I doubt many of the unfortunate folks who contemplate suicide because of their unbearable pain delve deeply into philosophical frameworks of any sort. Regardless of their religious beliefs, or philosophical frameworks, they just want the pain to stop.

In this light I think it would be fairer to say that this degree of pain tests a persons convictions, merely.
Pain does indeed cut through thought.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Tolya M » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:31 am

Grigoris wrote:The truth is though, that the idea that suicide can end suffering is only true within a materialistic-nihilist philosophical framework.

If you believe in rebirth then you would have to accept the "fact" that stopping your current pain/suffering, is not going to put an end to your future pain/suffering, and might actually compound it.
It depends again... It can stop bodily suffering. Brilliance in phowa can prevent unwholesome actions as ChNN writes. There can be no complete rejection of such broad phenomenon, because a set of factors is always considered.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:40 am

Jesse wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
There are many things about death that have changed, we now have the means to let people die peacefully, with tact, whereas there used to be no such way to do this.
Firstly, to some degree this is untrue. IIRC there are discussion of what amounts to assisted suicide in the Pali Canon..does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Secondly, having seen a few examples of the "dying peacefully" thing I have to disagree, dying peacefully is not neccessarily the same thing as dying in a drug-induced coma.
Have you ever been at someone's side while they are "dying naturally" ? They are in fact.. in a drug induced coma. Usually, high potency Opiates are pumped into their system to 'make them comfortable'. In fact, my aunt is dying this very moment and the exact thing I just explained is happening. I was also at my grandmas side when it happened, same thing. Pumped full of opiates until they can't even comprehend anymore, and usually they just slowly slip into unconsciousness.

What then, is the difference between the method of assisted suicide, and how we go about 'natural death' in our culture?

There is none!!
My Mother worked many years for an agency taking care of mostly older or severely ill people.My Mother was told to give the
them pain meds when they asked and when they were unable to ask, if they appeared to be in pain she was told to
administer more pain meds assisting them.The patients paid well for this service.
My Mother is a very compassionate person.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:42 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Firstly, to some degree this is untrue. IIRC there are discussion of what amounts to assisted suicide in the Pali Canon..does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Secondly, having seen a few examples of the "dying peacefully" thing I have to disagree, dying peacefully is not neccessarily the same thing as dying in a drug-induced coma.
Have you ever been at someone's side while they are "dying naturally" ? They are in fact.. in a drug induced coma. Usually, high potency Opiates are pumped into their system to 'make them comfortable'. In fact, my aunt is dying this very moment and the exact thing I just explained is happening. I was also at my grandmas side when it happened, same thing. Pumped full of opiates until they can't even comprehend anymore, and usually they just slowly slip into unconsciousness.

What then, is the difference between the method of assisted suicide, and how we go about 'natural death' in our culture?

There is none!!
My Mother worked many years for an agency taking care of mostly older or severely ill people.My Mother was told to give the
them pain meds when they asked and when they were unable to ask, if they appeared to be in pain she was told to
administer more pain meds assisting them.The patients paid well for this service.
My Mother is a very compassionate person.
This is in the USA where now some states do openly permit euthanasia.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:11 am

Tolya M wrote:It depends again... It can stop bodily suffering.
Did you actually read what I said?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:13 am

boda wrote:I doubt many of the unfortunate folks who contemplate suicide because of their unbearable pain delve deeply into philosophical frameworks of any sort. Regardless of their religious beliefs, or philosophical frameworks, they just want the pain to stop.

In this light I think it would be fairer to say that this degree of pain tests a persons convictions, merely.
I deal with people that mainly have mental and existential pain.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Kaccāni » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:43 am

Grigoris wrote:The truth is though, that the idea that suicide can end suffering is only true within a materialistic-nihilist philosophical framework.

If you believe in rebirth then you would have to accept the "fact" that stopping your current pain/suffering,
I can have a constructivist-non-nihilist philosophical framework that doesn't believe in rebirth and deems it a concept of imputational character that claims ultimate truth, and come to a similar conclusion. It will end the suffering at one place. But dependent on the relationships, it will create new suffering in other places via other-dependent character. So from a Mahayana perspective, one could say suicide is a selfish, non-compassionate act that only Arhats would consider, which, in my eyes, pretty much sums up the Mahayana / Hinayana debate.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:03 pm

Kaccāni wrote:I can have a constructivist-non-nihilist philosophical framework that doesn't believe in rebirth and deems it a concept of imputational character that claims ultimate truth, and come to a similar conclusion.
Whatever floats your boat. I'm not sure if this sort of boat would float anyway... But...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Kaccāni » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:13 pm

Grigoris wrote: I'm not sure if this sort of boat would float anyway... But...
It does ;)
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Tolya M » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tolya M wrote:It depends again... It can stop bodily suffering.
Did you actually read what I said?
Yes, it is quite clear.
Grigoris wrote:The truth is though, that the idea that suicide can end suffering is only true within a materialistic-nihilist philosophical framework.
The list of possible types of suffering is large and an even longer is list of conditions. It is quite clear that the intentional abandonment of the body can stop some of the suffering. This dependence of the level of "stop being sick". It is true within Abhidharma\Abhidhamma without any problems. It does not even make sense to consider it, it's so obvious.

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