5th heinous crime

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Rinchen Samphel
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5th heinous crime

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:00 am

Hello,

I have been reading about the fifth heinous crime recently and it seems to be a little less straight forward than the other ones. What I wanted to know is:

When it says "cause a schism in the sangha" is that only referring to the assembly of monks and nuns? I have read according to Theravada that is how it is seen. But what about within Mahayana? Is it causing a schism within any form of Sangha (lay, online sangha, any group of buddhists?) Also, in the Pali Canon the Buddha says that a female monk, male or female novice, male or female lay person, cannot create a schism. Is there anything that says different according to Mahayana sutras or Vajrayana.

For some reason the 5th heinous crime seems a little more complicated than the other 4.

Thank you.

Jesse
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Jesse » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:54 am

What is so complicated about it? It simply means do not cause discord within the Sangha. I imagine it means any form of Sangha including online ones.

It simply means do not disrupt, cause harm, cause discord, angst, or disharmony within the sangha.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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Aryjna
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:48 pm

Jesse wrote:What is so complicated about it? It simply means do not cause discord within the Sangha. I imagine it means any form of Sangha including online ones.

It simply means do not disrupt, cause harm, cause discord, angst, or disharmony within the sangha.
A schism and disharmony are not the same thing. Also, i doubt that it refers to any sangha. Causing some minor drama in a small group of practitioners, even though obviously a bad thing, does not seem equally serious to killing an arhat, your parents etc.

I always took it to refer to causing a real schism that breaks apart the sangha, something like splitting a tradition in two factions permanently, like the eastern orthodox church and the catholic church.

But this is just my impression. I'm sure there must be commentaries that talk about the five crimes.

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:04 am

Hey,

Thanks you for your responses. I posted this with intent to personally study, however I wanted to see if anyone else had readily available knowledge or material for me to view. What I basically compiled is:

1. A schism can only be caused by a male Bhikkhu.
2. There must be ill-intent (not all schismatics are destined for an aeon in hell)
3. There must be 9 monks total (including the schismatic)
4. This does not apply to the western view of any gathering of Buddhists as being a Sangha.

The reason why I became curious is because on another forum there was a user to tried to calm down a debate by saying each person could cause disharmony in the online sangha and could then start a schism resulting in the 5th heinous crime. To say the least, it made me paranoid that it would be that easy to commit that crime. Now I have researched and found what I wrote above.

My info comes from mainly the Tripitaka, a Geluk Monk, Vasubandhu and Kongtrul.
If anyone would like the websites, pdfs, etc, let my know.

Thanks.

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Invokingvajras
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Invokingvajras » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:32 pm

If you could share the sources of what you compiled, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm curious as to which parts of the Pali Canon specify what constitutes a schism. Last I checked, debate and disagreement are not inherently schismatic activities.
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

♒⚡~若悩乱者頭破七分~⚡♑

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:08 am

https://info-buddhism.com/sangha_schism.html

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... attva-vows
(Under the 8th root downfall)

Those are the main ones I found. If you want more let me know. I know in Treasury of Knowledge schism is talked about as a lie to split the monastic community. Can't find exactly where right now though.

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Invokingvajras
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Invokingvajras » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:35 pm

That's perfect. Thank you kindly. :anjali:
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

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