5th heinous crime

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Jesse
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Jesse » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:54 am

What is so complicated about it? It simply means do not cause discord within the Sangha. I imagine it means any form of Sangha including online ones.

It simply means do not disrupt, cause harm, cause discord, angst, or disharmony within the sangha.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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Aryjna
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:48 pm

Jesse wrote:What is so complicated about it? It simply means do not cause discord within the Sangha. I imagine it means any form of Sangha including online ones.

It simply means do not disrupt, cause harm, cause discord, angst, or disharmony within the sangha.
A schism and disharmony are not the same thing. Also, i doubt that it refers to any sangha. Causing some minor drama in a small group of practitioners, even though obviously a bad thing, does not seem equally serious to killing an arhat, your parents etc.

I always took it to refer to causing a real schism that breaks apart the sangha, something like splitting a tradition in two factions permanently, like the eastern orthodox church and the catholic church.

But this is just my impression. I'm sure there must be commentaries that talk about the five crimes.

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:04 am

Hey,

Thanks you for your responses. I posted this with intent to personally study, however I wanted to see if anyone else had readily available knowledge or material for me to view. What I basically compiled is:

1. A schism can only be caused by a male Bhikkhu.
2. There must be ill-intent (not all schismatics are destined for an aeon in hell)
3. There must be 9 monks total (including the schismatic)
4. This does not apply to the western view of any gathering of Buddhists as being a Sangha.

The reason why I became curious is because on another forum there was a user to tried to calm down a debate by saying each person could cause disharmony in the online sangha and could then start a schism resulting in the 5th heinous crime. To say the least, it made me paranoid that it would be that easy to commit that crime. Now I have researched and found what I wrote above.

My info comes from mainly the Tripitaka, a Geluk Monk, Vasubandhu and Kongtrul.
If anyone would like the websites, pdfs, etc, let my know.

Thanks.

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Invokingvajras
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Invokingvajras » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:32 pm

If you could share the sources of what you compiled, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm curious as to which parts of the Pali Canon specify what constitutes a schism. Last I checked, debate and disagreement are not inherently schismatic activities.
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

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Rinchen Samphel
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:08 am

https://info-buddhism.com/sangha_schism.html

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... attva-vows
(Under the 8th root downfall)

Those are the main ones I found. If you want more let me know. I know in Treasury of Knowledge schism is talked about as a lie to split the monastic community. Can't find exactly where right now though.

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Invokingvajras
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Invokingvajras » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:35 pm

That's perfect. Thank you kindly. :anjali:
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

♒⚡~若悩乱者頭破七分~⚡♑

well wisher
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by well wisher » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:35 am

Well I really hope I am not causing a schism by online criticizing Tantric / Tiebietian buddhism for not adhering to the 5 basic precepts and being dangerous, especially the "Sexual" part.

There was a different north americaner online blog about a that complaiined how Tantric buddhism made her into a sex slave, and I responsed like how it was "not buddhism" because it gross violate the sexual misconduct precept, and that you should trust your own instinct / buddha natture instead, as all humans have some inherhent buddah nature (just muddled), so each person should trust their own instinct.

My childhood came from Mahayana buddhistm background, as my my father and my grandma are great Taiwanese pure-land amitabah believers. But I have also attended Theravada-style Vipsanna mediation session hosted in Canada. Goenka was truly a great Vipasanna guru.

I was defintely not intentionally try to cause a schism. Just trying to protect buddhism in general, by trying to defend it with the 5 basic precepts.
After that post, I suffered thru at least 2 weeks of painful sleepness nights and overflowing idle thoughts about "methodologies" leading to headaches and red eyes, causing me to self-reflect deeply.
I now believe Tiebietian Tantric buddhism is indeed a very powerful and righteous path in buddhism, and I now totally resepct the Dalai lama and his fellow tantric gurus, but I still believe that path is still quite dangerous to tread with a proper guru to guide you.

I still believe buddhists should not break the 5 precepts so easily to avoid negative karmas and painful lower realm reincarnation cycles.

Prehaps that is why the is so many differen schools of buddhism, they all can lead to enlightment, just some paths are more fitting for each person than others (just like why there is so many different buddahs described in the sutras).

One of the great 48 vows of Amitabh seem to be:
"If I would become a Buddha, then any sentient being in any one of the ten directions who would earnestly believe and willingly wish to be born in my Pureland, even if for only the duration of ten thoughts, would be born there. Otherwise, I would not attain Full Enlightenment. With the only exception of those sentient beings who either have committed the <b>five deadly sins </b> or have censured the Right Dharma. "

Have a commited the "schism" 5th Sin from my online comment about criticism of Tiebietian Tantric buddhism? I truly did not intend to do so!
Will repenting to Amitabh and Skahyamuni and all buddahs help reduce the severity of my negative karmas? I do not wished to be denied access to buddah pure lands after my death, because of my ignorant mistake!

Thanks all

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Grigoris
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by Grigoris » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:44 pm

well wisher wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:35 am
There was a different north americaner online blog about a that complaiined how Tantric buddhism made her into a sex slave, and I responsed like how it was "not buddhism" because it gross violate the sexual misconduct precept, and that you should trust your own instinct / buddha natture instead, as all humans have some inherhent buddah nature (just muddled), so each person should trust their own instinct.
You are correct: Making people sex slaves is not Buddhism. No branch of Tantric Buddhism teaches people to become sex slaves and if they do then they are not a branch of Tantric Buddhism.
Have a commited the "schism" 5th Sin from my online comment about criticism of Tiebietian Tantric buddhism?
No.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

well wisher
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Re: 5th heinous crime

Post by well wisher » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:32 pm

That is very reassuring, thank you. :namaste:
I also found the other post regarding schism to be reassuring and calming too:

viewtopic.php?t=28651&start=20
"How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?"

Looks like a person can only commit the "shcism" crime if one is too full of pride and ego and mercilessly condemns or riducle others, like the historical Devedatta.

Discussion on ideas and methods for the "way" do not fit this crime, especially if one is sincere, right?

Thanks,

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