Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
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Pero
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:54 pm
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:37 pm



Definitely not.
This was back on E-Sangha.

Definitely not.
It might not have been you but for sure it was sourced from some sutra.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Stefos
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Stefos » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:57 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm
"There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.
This is actually standard Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Buddhism generally which, though exclusivist in its claim on truth, (one must accept the Lotus Sutra, or its fundamental message, in order to awaken,) is catholic in its breadth. So, for this reason, I can accept that even though someone may be completely wrong, they are so wrong that they cannot help but be right on occasion, which is in line with the Buddha's intention as He dwells eternally on Holy Eagle Peak.

:namaste:
And this is the reason why I use "Modern Buddhism" = Nichiren & Lotus Buddhism and other late "Buddhadharma" inventions in the context of SMP and the Dharma.
No wonder the schism in the early Sangha I.E. the 24 school period happened...........Each group wanted to hear what THEY wanted to promulgate.

Much like the Left & Right in politricks today.

Stefos

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The Cicada
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by The Cicada » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:02 pm

Stefos wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:57 pm
And this is the reason why I use "Modern Buddhism" = Nichiren & Lotus Buddhism and other late "Buddhadharma" inventions in the context of SMP and the Dharma.
No wonder the schism in the early Sangha I.E. the 24 school period happened...........Each group wanted to hear what THEY wanted to promulgate.

Much like the Left & Right in politricks today.

Stefos
Oh I wasn't giving you Lotus Buddhism there, and as DGA has already mentioned, the gist of the Lotus Sutra is present throughout the Buddhist canon. No, look to the Pali canon for your answers on this particular subject. It's considered to be the most accurate by scholars.

That's where I got the 5 prostitutes a day, where legal, rule from.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:08 pm

Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:54 pm
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:53 pm


This was back on E-Sangha.

Definitely not.
It might not have been you but for sure it was sourced from some sutra.

Whoever presented this opinion presented it from Berzin's website:

Consider, for example, the discussion about having sex with a prostitute. In both the Indian and the Tibetan texts, having sex with a prostitute is perfectly okay, even for a married man, so long as the man pays for the prostitute.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... ostitution

This what you said:
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself.
But we can see from the passage that I cited above it is not the case that visiting prostitutes was considered acceptable conduct for a householder bodhisattva.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pero
Posts: 2167
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:08 pm
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:55 pm
It might not have been you but for sure it was sourced from some sutra.
Whoever presented this opinion presented it from Berzin's website:

Consider, for example, the discussion about having sex with a prostitute. In both the Indian and the Tibetan texts, having sex with a prostitute is perfectly okay, even for a married man, so long as the man pays for the prostitute.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... ostitution

This what you said:
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself.
But we can see from the passage that I cited above it is not the case that visiting prostitutes was considered acceptable conduct for a householder bodhisattva.
Hmm I guess it could be so, it was a long time ago. Or perhaps it was Pali.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:54 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:02 pm


That's where I got the 5 prostitutes a day, where legal, rule from.
Specific source please.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm
"There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.
This is actually standard Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Buddhism
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

DGA
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:11 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm
"There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.
This is actually standard Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Buddhism
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
It's funny: I'd never given this much thought before, but I think you are correct that this is a useful distinction.

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The Cicada
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by The Cicada » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
Sure, but of course Pure Land Buddhism is more like Abrahamic traditions in many respects than Buddhism as clarified by Nichiren, though Pure Landers may be more tolerant than we are if lacking our sense of urgency. This sense of urgency seems to remind some individuals of the Abrahamic religions, but this is due to their own hang ups.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:54 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:02 pm


That's where I got the 5 prostitutes a day, where legal, rule from.
Specific source please.
It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to this thread at Dhammawheel.

It's the least I can do to curtail the rampant whorephobia so prevalent here.

Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:54 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:02 pm


That's where I got the 5 prostitutes a day, where legal, rule from.
Specific source please.
I don't know about the 5 prostitutes per day thing but having sex with a hooker if you are single does not break the sexual misconduct precept according to Bhikku Dhammanando on dhammawheel. Why do the rules for this change in Mahayana?

Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:49 am

Dhammanando:
There is no kind of sex that is entirely free of unskill, for all sex involves lust and reinforces the tendency to lust. Observance of the third precept sets a limit on the degree of unskill. By observing it one ensures that one’s sex life is not disruptive of family life (one’s own or others’) or social harmony.

As for prostitution, I really don’t understand why so many western Buddhists have this idée fixe about there being something inordinately evil in a man’s paying a woman to have sex with him. Ceteris paribus, having sex with a prostitute is no more unskilful than having sex with one’s wife. In fact in some respects it might even be less unskilful. For example there’s far less deceit and hypocrisy involved in it. Unlike sex with one’s wife, after sex with a prostitute a man can just get up, take a shower and then go read a book or meditate or something. He doesn’t have to waste an hour lying in bed reluctantly feigning post-coital affection.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23652

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 am

Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 am
Why do the rules for this change in Mahayana?
Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:28 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 am
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 am
Why do the rules for this change in Mahayana?
Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.
I read something once that a bodhisattva can have sex with a hooker if it benefits her in some way. Maybe you know the sutra for this.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:35 am

Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:28 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 am
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 am
Why do the rules for this change in Mahayana?
Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.
I read something once that a bodhisattva can have sex with a hooker if it benefits her in some way. Maybe you know the sutra for this.
That's a very slippery and steep slope.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:45 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:35 am
That's a very slippery and steep slope.
how so?

:popcorn:

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kirtu
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by kirtu » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:03 am

Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:28 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 am
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 am
Why do the rules for this change in Mahayana?
Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.
I read something once that a bodhisattva can have sex with a hooker if it benefits her in some way. Maybe you know the sutra for this.
There are lots of Zen stories concerning this.

But it's basically a no go zone in any other tradition of Buddhism.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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liuzg150181
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by liuzg150181 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:08 am

kirtu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:03 am
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:28 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 am


Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.
I read something once that a bodhisattva can have sex with a hooker if it benefits her in some way. Maybe you know the sutra for this.
There are lots of Zen stories concerning this.

But it's basically a no go zone in any other tradition of Buddhism.

Kirt
Vajrayana? :|

Ricky
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:12 am

kirtu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:03 am
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:28 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 am


Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.
I read something once that a bodhisattva can have sex with a hooker if it benefits her in some way. Maybe you know the sutra for this.
There are lots of Zen stories concerning this.

But it's basically a no go zone in any other tradition of Buddhism.

Kirt
You sure about that? It doesn't break the third precept unless you're in a relationship.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:12 am

A bodhisattva can do anything if it helps anyone.

A bodhisattva is not motivated by selfish desires.
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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kirtu
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by kirtu » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:21 am

liuzg150181 wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:08 am
kirtu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:03 am
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:28 am

I read something once that a bodhisattva can have sex with a hooker if it benefits her in some way. Maybe you know the sutra for this.
There are lots of Zen stories concerning this.

But it's basically a no go zone in any other tradition of Buddhism.

Kirt
Vajrayana? :|
Vaajrayana is almost as sexually conservative as traditional Chinese Buddhism is. However this is also because teachings about sexual matters are usually considered from the monastic POV.

In Tibetan Buddhism there are sometimes other references though (Drukpa Kunley for example [recently dismissed on this site as a folktale]; the legends of the amourous life of the Sixth Dalai Lama and occassionally some other references). Sometimes sexual interplay has wider significance than just usual selfish satisfaction (for example, in "Lord of the Dance" the implication that a wandering lama was Chagdud Tulku's father) although this is only ever considered from a "traditional" heterosexual POV.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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