Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
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Grigoris
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:53 pm

Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:03 pm
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra
Uh oh. :smile:
From my signature: "Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Norwegian
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Norwegian » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:53 pm
Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:03 pm
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra
Uh oh. :smile:
From my signature: "Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Yeah, so here context is important: The Mahayana sutra Malcolm quotes, deals with things from the perspective of a sentient being. Your citation, from the Kunjed Gyalpo tantra, deals with things from the perspective of Buddhahood itself.

If your reality is that, that of Buddhahood itself, then certainly everything is blissful. It doesn't matter really where you are, where you go, as you have realized Buddhahood and you're beyond karma. You are beyond that of having problems, of any kind.

But if that is not the case, and if you're a sentient being, then everything is certainly not blissful. And there is karma. And you should pay attention to that karma. Because as long as you're a sentient being, you will suffer. And you are very likely to cause suffering for others too.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:09 pm

Then there are the yogis that break All rules....even having sex with their mother....Nothing is considered taboo....they have the highest realization.....imagine that.....

To actually live in Ultimate Reality. ...not for the faint-hearted. ...
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

Pero
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:50 pm
Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm
Dude seriously? How does having sex with any woman fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
Easily: you treat the women you have sex with, with the same amount of love and respect that you would afford your mother. The advice is metaphorical, not literal you dingbat! :tongue:
:rolling:
From my signature: "Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Hey no disagreement here (and not necessarily even with the sutra quote). Although the same would go for the "Johns" no? :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:14 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:53 pm
Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:03 pm
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra
Uh oh. :smile:
From my signature: "Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

So now I assume you are going to smoke weed, take drugs, drink booze, and eat meat again? Amazing the permissions we can find in a little citation!
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:22 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:08 pm
Yeah, so here context is important: The Mahayana sutra Malcolm quotes, deals with things from the perspective of a sentient being. Your citation, from the Kunjed Gyalpo tantra, deals with things from the perspective of Buddhahood itself.

If your reality is that, that of Buddhahood itself, then certainly everything is blissful. It doesn't matter really where you are, where you go, as you have realized Buddhahood and you're beyond karma. You are beyond that of having problems, of any kind.

But if that is not the case, and if you're a sentient being, then everything is certainly not blissful. And there is karma. And you should pay attention to that karma. Because as long as you're a sentient being, you will suffer. And you are very likely to cause suffering for others too.
I do believe you have completely misinterpreted the notion. If you do not work towards this view NOW, then how will you achieve Buddhahood?

There is a similar line in a Tsok practice which goes (loose translation from French to Greek to English): Heed this wonderful, beautiful and holy Dharma without hesitation, it is impossible to have any doubt about this: The brahmin, the dog and the dalit (untouchable) all have the same nature, delight in this [knowledge]!

This is part of the practice, you don't have to wait for Buddhahood to experience this.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:14 pm
So now I assume you are going to smoke weed, take drugs, drink booze, and eat meat again? Amazing the permissions we can find in a little citation!
Quite amazing the conclusions that people jump to based on so little information. That is not what it is advising, and you know it!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:09 pm
From my signature: "Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Hey no disagreement here (and not necessarily even with the sutra quote). Although the same would go for the "Johns" no? :smile:
Yes. Just as well that there are two truths, isn't it? Means I can be a hypocrite and still come out of it smelling like a rose! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:14 pm
So now I assume you are going to smoke weed, take drugs, drink booze, and eat meat again? Amazing the permissions we can find in a little citation!
Quite amazing the conclusions that people jump to based on so little information. That is not what it is advising, and you know it!
Greg, in all seriousness, the Kun byed rgyal po citation is talking about the nature of the mind. The sūtra quote I posted was about how someone who holds bodhisattva vows should conduct themselves. I assume you hold three vows, because you are Vajrayāna practitioner. This means that observing bodhisattva vows are important to you, since I know that they are important to you. The citation is not saying, "don't visit prostitutes because they are bad people." The citation means, "Do not visit prostitutes for sex." We already agree on this.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:56 pm

Malcolm wrote: Greg, in all seriousness, the Kun byed rgyal po citation is talking about the nature of the mind. The sūtra quote I posted was about how someone who holds bodhisattva vows should conduct themselves. I assume you hold three vows, because you are Vajrayāna practitioner. This means that observing bodhisattva vows are important to you, since I know that they are important to you. The citation is not saying, "don't visit prostitutes because they are bad people." The citation means, "Do not visit prostitutes for sex." We already agree on this.
When did I disagree?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:32 pm
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:57 pm
There is no precept either in Theravada or Mahayana that outlaws sexual encounters between two consenting adults...
See now you are heading into tricky territory. For example: If a woman agrees to have sex with you for payment because they need the money to pay the rent and cannot get it any other way are they actually consenting?

Or, given the high incidence of previous/childhood abuse of current sex workers do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or, given the high incidence of drug abuse among sex worker, do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or...

How can consent work when there are so many power imbalances?

How many people here have sex with prostitutes because of a desire to benefit the prostitute and out of compassion, and how many do it just to please their sexual desires?

How many people arguing that having sex with prostitutes is alright from a Buddhist point of view just to rationalise a)thinking with their knob and b)behaviour which they know is unwholesome but they are in denial over?

How does having sex with prostitutes fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
All I'm saying is it doesn't break the precept, not whether it's a good or bad thing. If one wants to seriously progress on the path of Dharma in this lifetime then it is best to avoid all sexual activity regardless of who it's with.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:29 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm

All I'm saying is it doesn't break the precept, not whether it's a good or bad thing.
It breaks the bodhisattva precepts, which, if one is a lay Mahāyāna practitioner, are more important than the five lay pratimokśa precepts. The sūtra I cited also states that much of what is permissible for a Hinayāna practitioner is forbidden to a Mahāyāna practitioner, and vice versa. The five pratimokśa precepts are not definitive for Mahāyānis, but the bodhisattva precepts are definitive.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
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Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:29 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm

All I'm saying is it doesn't break the precept, not whether it's a good or bad thing.
It breaks the bodhisattva precepts, which, if one is a lay Mahāyāna practitioner, are more important than the five lay pratimokśa precepts. The sūtra I cited also states that much of what is permissible for a Hinayāna practitioner is forbidden to a Mahāyāna practitioner, and vice versa. The five pratimokśa precepts are not definitive for Mahāyānis, but the bodhisattva precepts are definitive.
If one is a Shin Buddhist then the 5 basic precepts are good enough.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:45 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:29 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm

All I'm saying is it doesn't break the precept, not whether it's a good or bad thing.
It breaks the bodhisattva precepts, which, if one is a lay Mahāyāna practitioner, are more important than the five lay pratimokśa precepts. The sūtra I cited also states that much of what is permissible for a Hinayāna practitioner is forbidden to a Mahāyāna practitioner, and vice versa. The five pratimokśa precepts are not definitive for Mahāyānis, but the bodhisattva precepts are definitive.
If one is a Shin Buddhist then the 5 basic precepts are good enough.
If you are a Shin Buddhist you don't even follow those.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:45 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:29 pm


It breaks the bodhisattva precepts, which, if one is a lay Mahāyāna practitioner, are more important than the five lay pratimokśa precepts. The sūtra I cited also states that much of what is permissible for a Hinayāna practitioner is forbidden to a Mahāyāna practitioner, and vice versa. The five pratimokśa precepts are not definitive for Mahāyānis, but the bodhisattva precepts are definitive.
If one is a Shin Buddhist then the 5 basic precepts are good enough.
If you are a Shin Buddhist you don't even follow those.
True but its great to have some level of morals and decency in life.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:57 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:49 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:45 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:37 pm

If one is a Shin Buddhist then the 5 basic precepts are good enough.
If you are a Shin Buddhist you don't even follow those.
True but its great to have some level of morals and decency in life.
Then it is better to choose bodhisattva ethics over pratimokṣa ethics.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by pael » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:45 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:29 pm


It breaks the bodhisattva precepts, which, if one is a lay Mahāyāna practitioner, are more important than the five lay pratimokśa precepts. The sūtra I cited also states that much of what is permissible for a Hinayāna practitioner is forbidden to a Mahāyāna practitioner, and vice versa. The five pratimokśa precepts are not definitive for Mahāyānis, but the bodhisattva precepts are definitive.
If one is a Shin Buddhist then the 5 basic precepts are good enough.
If you are a Shin Buddhist you don't even follow those.
May webcast-Dzogchen Buddhist and taker of traditional initiations follow Shin Buddhism without Vajrasattva?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:05 pm

I dont know, guys. I think we can find ANY citation to support ANY view. Therefore I consider "sexual misconduct" would be different in my country, different in other country. Just to apply rules of the country Im living in.
And story with my lama: once we were talking smthng and he said, that best prostitutes are in Lhasa. If you will visit Lhasa, you have to try!. Everyone was speechless, one guy was objecting and Rinpoche told him, if he is aware, that many prostitutes were highly accomplishe practicioners, and they can give direct introduction thrue sex. Another one, a bit new age, was afraid, if he will not be poluted by some negative energies from her. Rinpoche said: You are tantrika, you must deal it!
In another occasion, Rinpoche was explaining about ngakpa robes. And he said, that," when you wear robes, it is vajra armor for you. You will not visit prostitutes, when you are in robes, for example."

:namaste:

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:17 pm

Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:05 pm
I dont know, guys. I think we can find ANY citation to support ANY view.
No, not really.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:42 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm
If one wants to seriously progress on the path of Dharma in this lifetime then it is best to avoid all sexual activity regardless of who it's with.
Not in the lineage I am currently practicing in...
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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