Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
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Stefos
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Stefos » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:45 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:09 am
And the same boundaries to discussion apply in the case of vegetarianism being mandatory for Buddhists.
This is a position adopted by certain Sutras accepted by Chinese Buddhists but by few others.
Chinese and Indo-Tibetan Buddhists can co exist..but not when either group claim that theirs is the exclusive truth.
Hi Simon E,

Chinese and Indo-Tibetan Buddhists can co-exist of course.

My stance is that there are so many Buddhist schools that it begs the question as to whom is in line with Lord Buddha Shakyamuni and the prior Buddhas to him.

Also, since a Buddha can manifest via the Sambhogakaya manifestation, I do believe that they can teach "further things" insofar as Dhamma/Dharma is concerned......The caveat being that they first need to line up with Lord Buddha Shakyamuni's teaching insofar as the fundamentals are concerned:
4 noble truths
Noble 8 fold path
Anatman & Shunya

Thank you for posting sir

Stefos
:anjali:

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Grigoris
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:32 pm

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:49 am
Conservative family values = healthy and strong society.
Yeah, there is nothing like keeping women subjugated to male whims and in a subservient position to men, to keep society strong and healthy. :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:43 pm

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:49 am
Conservative family values = healthy and strong society.
Right, which is why Christian adolescents have much higher rates of STD's than the gen pop. :roll:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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The Cicada
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by The Cicada » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:06 pm

Stefos wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:45 pm

My stance is that there are so many Buddhist schools that it begs the question as to whom is in line with Lord Buddha Shakyamuni and the prior Buddhas to him.

Also, since a Buddha can manifest via the Sambhogakaya manifestation, I do believe that they can teach "further things" insofar as Dhamma/Dharma is concerned......The caveat being that they first need to line up with Lord Buddha Shakyamuni's teaching insofar as the fundamentals are concerned:
4 noble truths
Noble 8 fold path
Anatman & Shunya

Thank you for posting sir

Stefos
:anjali:
When it comes to which particular schools line up most closely with what the Buddha taught regarding lay sexuality, duties and responsibilities to family, I think it's really the Theravadin schools that adhere most closely in this respect, as their nations largely adopted Buddhism wholesale. In my view, they definitely have the most "conservative" interpretation of these lay concerns where it comes to keeping nescience subjugated to enlightened wisdom and in a subservient position to the goal of awakening to keep society strong and healthy.

It's also important to note that some convert Buddhists have hangups about what is permitted by the Buddha, such as the fact that frequenting prostitutes, where legal, is perfectly fine so long as one limits oneself to 5 a day. But these are just puritanical Christian hangups that have have no place in Buddhism because the practice is perfectly fine so long as it is legal, as it is in Last Vegas here in the States.

:thumbsup:

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:09 am
And the same boundaries to discussion apply in the case of vegetarianism being mandatory for Buddhists.
This is a position adopted by certain Sutras accepted by Chinese Buddhists but by few others.
Chinese and Indo-Tibetan Buddhists can co exist..but not when either group claim that theirs is the exclusive truth.
Exactly. We can't learn from each other's experience if we can't understand each other, and we can't understand each other if we don't respect each other's differences. Respecting differences means not insisting our way is the only-and-always right way. "There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.

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The Cicada
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by The Cicada » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm
"There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.
This is actually standard Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Buddhism generally which, though exclusivist in its claim on truth, (one must accept the Lotus Sutra, or its fundamental message, in order to awaken,) is catholic in its breadth. So, for this reason, I can accept that even though someone may be completely wrong, they are so wrong that they cannot help but be right on occasion, which is in line with the Buddha's intention as He dwells eternally on Holy Eagle Peak.

:namaste:

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:03 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:06 pm
It's also important to note that some convert Buddhists have hangups about what is permitted by the Buddha, such as the fact that frequenting prostitutes, where legal, is perfectly fine so long as one limits oneself to 5 a day. But these are just puritanical Christian hangups that have have no place in Buddhism because the practice is perfectly fine so long as it is legal, as it is in Last Vegas here in the States.
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:32 pm
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:49 am
Conservative family values = healthy and strong society.
Yeah, there is nothing like keeping women subjugated to male whims and in a subservient position to men, to keep society strong and healthy. :roll:
I wasn't talking about the family values found in Saudi Arabia. That's a completely different type of family values than what I'm trying to say.

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Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:43 pm
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:49 am
Conservative family values = healthy and strong society.
Right, which is why Christian adolescents have much higher rates of STD's than the gen pop. :roll:
Then maybe their idea of family values is flawed? Or the adolescents infected with STD's come mostly from nominally christian backgrounds rather than actual christian?

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:21 pm

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:49 am
Conservative family values = healthy and strong society.
Any evidence in support of this claim?

Also, what do you mean by "conservative family values"? it can mean different things to different people in different societies.

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Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:21 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:06 pm


It's also important to note that some convert Buddhists have hangups about what is permitted by the Buddha, such as the fact that frequenting prostitutes, where legal, is perfectly fine so long as one limits oneself to 5 a day. But these are just puritanical Christian hangups that have have no place in Buddhism because the practice is perfectly fine so long as it is legal, as it is in Last Vegas here in the States.

:thumbsup:
Up to 5 times per day? Jesus Christ. Where did you get this information from?

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The Cicada
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by The Cicada » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:24 pm

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:21 pm
Up to 5 times per day? Jesus Christ. Where did you get this information from?
There's an entire thread about it on this forum. And it's 5 prostitutes per day. People, not instances.

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Ricky
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:24 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:21 pm

Also, what do you mean by "conservative family values"? it can mean different things to different people in different societies.
The type found in traditionally buddhists countries such as Thailand.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:29 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm
"There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.
This is actually standard Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Buddhism generally which, though exclusivist in its claim on truth, (one must accept the Lotus Sutra, or its fundamental message, in order to awaken,) is catholic in its breadth. So, for this reason, I can accept that even though someone may be completely wrong, they are so wrong that they cannot help but be right on occasion, which is in line with the Buddha's intention as He dwells eternally on Holy Eagle Peak.

:namaste:
The fundamental message of the Lotus Sutra isn't controversial among Mahayana Buddhists. If you practice Mahayana Buddhism of any stripe, you accept the message of the Lotus Sutra. You can get a survey of this point here (and many other places at DW):

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=26860

There are plenty of narratives around that text that are controversial, including the bit about Shakyamuni as "Eternal Buddha." Interested parties can probe that here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26717

viewtopic.php?t=17143

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26553

and for a real treat

viewtopic.php?t=20877
Last edited by DGA on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:30 pm

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:21 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:06 pm


It's also important to note that some convert Buddhists have hangups about what is permitted by the Buddha, such as the fact that frequenting prostitutes, where legal, is perfectly fine so long as one limits oneself to 5 a day. But these are just puritanical Christian hangups that have have no place in Buddhism because the practice is perfectly fine so long as it is legal, as it is in Last Vegas here in the States.

:thumbsup:
Up to 5 times per day? Jesus Christ. Where did you get this information from?
Our friend The Cicada has an active imagination and is a talented writer.

Pero
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:31 pm

I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself. Ironically I think it was Malcolm who mentioned this first. :shrug:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:37 pm

Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:31 pm
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself. Ironically I think it was Malcolm who mentioned this first. :shrug:

Definitely not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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The Cicada
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by The Cicada » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:43 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:30 pm
Our friend The Cicada has an active imagination and is a talented writer.
Oh but why take to fiction when I can have a meaningful discussion with my good Dharma friends about prostitutes because they think the Buddha's teachings on family values for laypeople are just so passé? What could be a better use of my time? Far less karmically risky than decapitating people or even than watching a Steven Seagal marathon, really.

Yes, Ambapali herself was a prostitute. Look it up. And a refreshingly honest woman she was!

Pero
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:37 pm
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:31 pm
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself. Ironically I think it was Malcolm who mentioned this first. :shrug:

Definitely not.
This was back on E-Sangha.
Edit: It might not have been you but for sure it was sourced from some sutra.
Last edited by Pero on Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:54 pm

Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:37 pm
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:31 pm
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself. Ironically I think it was Malcolm who mentioned this first. :shrug:

Definitely not.
This was back on E-Sangha.

Definitely not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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