Page 7 of 9

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
by Grigoris
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
Sure, but of course Pure Land Buddhism is more like Abrahamic traditions in many respects than Buddhism as clarified by Nichiren, though Pure Landers may be more tolerant than we are if lacking our sense of urgency. This sense of urgency seems to remind some individuals of the Abrahamic religions, but this is due to their own hang ups.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:54 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:02 pm


That's where I got the 5 prostitutes a day, where legal, rule from.
Specific source please.
It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to this thread at Dhammawheel.

It's the least I can do to curtail the rampant whorephobia so prevalent here.
Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 pm
by Malcolm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:19 pm
by Grigoris
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.
I agree fully, especially after witnessing the effects that sex work has on the workers psyche. It's not pretty.

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:43 pm
by Malcolm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.
I agree fully, especially after witnessing the effects that sex work has on the workers psyche. It's not pretty.
Yes, it has nothing to do with phobias, as one person inaccurately described it, but rather caring for other human beings who are in exploited positions.

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:18 pm
by Motova
What if prostitution becomes a respected trade, like in Firefly?

Image

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:36 pm
by Grigoris
Motova wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:18 pm
What if prostitution becomes a respected trade, like in Firefly?

Image
And what if pigs became kosher?

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:47 pm
by DGA
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
Sure, but of course Pure Land Buddhism is more like Abrahamic traditions in many respects than Buddhism as clarified by Nichiren, though Pure Landers may be more tolerant than we are if lacking our sense of urgency. This sense of urgency seems to remind some individuals of the Abrahamic religions, but this is due to their own hang ups.
First off:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism


Second:
You are claiming that urgency of practice is a measure of comparison to Abrahamic religions. How is that warranted? How is that not a criticism of any and all Mahayana traditions, inclusive of Nichiren's?

Are you in a position to diagnose the hangups of millions of persons who participate a diverse Mahayana tradition?

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:58 pm
by Malcolm
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am

It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to this thread at Dhammawheel.
Dhammanando's opinion is not definitive.

It also does not apply to bodhisattvas, unlike the Mahāyāna sūtra passage I quoted above. Those who consider themselves Mahāyāna practitioners should by all means avoid visiting prostitutes for sexual services.

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:57 pm
by Ricky
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:58 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am

It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to this thread at Dhammawheel.
Dhammanando's opinion is not definitive.

It also does not apply to bodhisattvas, unlike the Mahāyāna sūtra passage I quoted above. Those who consider themselves Mahāyāna practitioners should by all means avoid visiting prostitutes for sexual services.
I would find his opinion on this matter definitive. He is very knowledgeable when it comes to the earlier texts.

Also a Mahayana practitioner should be able to do whatever he or she wants to as long as it's not harming anyone. There is no precept either in Theravada or Mahayana that outlaws sexual encounters between two consenting adults, whether that's with one's wife or a prostitute. This should be very clear.

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:07 pm
by Sādhaka
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:08 pm
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:55 pm
It might not have been you but for sure it was sourced from some sutra.
Whoever presented this opinion presented it from Berzin's website:

Consider, for example, the discussion about having sex with a prostitute. In both the Indian and the Tibetan texts, having sex with a prostitute is perfectly okay, even for a married man, so long as the man pays for the prostitute.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... ostitution

This what you said:
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself.
But we can see from the passage that I cited above it is not the case that visiting prostitutes was considered acceptable conduct for a householder bodhisattva.
Hmm I guess it could be so, it was a long time ago. Or perhaps it was Pali.

I believe it was actually Tsongkhapa who said it.

Then perhaps it can be acceptable for lay Tantrayana practitioners, but not for lay Paramitayana practitioners....

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:32 pm
by Grigoris
Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:57 pm
There is no precept either in Theravada or Mahayana that outlaws sexual encounters between two consenting adults...
See now you are heading into tricky territory. For example: If a woman agrees to have sex with you for payment because they need the money to pay the rent and cannot get it any other way are they actually consenting?

Or, given the high incidence of previous/childhood abuse of current sex workers do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or, given the high incidence of drug abuse among sex worker, do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or...

How can consent work when there are so many power imbalances?

How many people here have sex with prostitutes because of a desire to benefit the prostitute and out of compassion, and how many do it just to please their sexual desires?

How many people arguing that having sex with prostitutes is alright from a Buddhist point of view just to rationalise a)thinking with their knob and b)behaviour which they know is unwholesome but they are in denial over?

How does having sex with prostitutes fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:52 am
by DGA
At least one member of my family has done sex work to survive (one that I know of). I won't go into details out of respect for this person but his or her experience conforms to the pattern you'd expect from reading the research on the lives of sex workers. It's at least as awful as you think, and probably worse, for the overwhelming majority of those who do sex work, and the stigma of having been a sex worker in any capacity can be harming for the rest of that person's lifetime. It sucks.

Sex workers are people who suffer (in most cases suffer a lot) and are highly deserving of compassion, not insult or derision.

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:17 am
by Stefos
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:32 pm
See now you are heading into tricky territory. For example: If a woman agrees to have sex with you for payment because they need the money to pay the rent and cannot get it any other way are they actually consenting?

Or, given the high incidence of previous/childhood abuse of current sex workers do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or, given the high incidence of drug abuse among sex worker, do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or...

How can consent work when there are so many power imbalances?

How many people here have sex with prostitutes because of a desire to benefit the prostitute and out of compassion, and how many do it just to please their sexual desires?

How many people arguing that having sex with prostitutes is alright from a Buddhist point of view just to rationalise a)thinking with their knob and b)behaviour which they know is unwholesome but they are in denial over?

How does having sex with prostitutes fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
And now, my friend, perhaps you understand why I've always said "modern Buddhism" and I've raised such a "fuss" about what I perceive is happening in Buddhadharma today: Buddhist sects everywhere with no full agreement with anything other than:
Buddha existed
4 noble truths
8 fold noble path
Beyond, this it's a: "Hey, what's your ""Dharmic path?"" and even then my observations have shown me that there is no interBuddhist dialogue going on in a deep sense of the term, not the "Buddy Buddha" bobblehead asserting that's happened with no in depth understanding of why a sect or yana does things the way it does.

For me, A fundamental RE-understanding what the Buddha came to do and what he actually taught FIRST is the foundation.
Beyond that, these discussions about Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc. along with peoples personal feelings about SMP need to be stopped.
This is what I coined to Malcolm as a "Buddhist confusion or Buddhist Babylon."

Opinions matter little if the actual Buddhadharma is not being nailed down insofar as fundamentals are concerned according to the most ancient sutras available FIRST then we can discuss Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc.

As a turn for discussion here.....Perhaps there should be MORE quoting from the Theravada and Gandharan texts along with the Chinese texts in order to understand S,M,P in the context of Buddhadharma.

This is clear enough to me anyway and perhaps you don't see it like that.........so be it.

:anjali:
Stefos

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:33 am
by Caoimhghín
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm
"There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.
This is actually standard Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Buddhism
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am
Sure, but of course Pure Land Buddhism is more like Abrahamic traditions in many respects than Buddhism as clarified by Nichiren, though Pure Landers may be more tolerant than we are if lacking our sense of urgency. This sense of urgency seems to remind some individuals of the Abrahamic religions, but this is due to their own hang ups.
I think it depends on what kind of Pure Land on terms of how "urgent" their practice will seem? Some are very radical in their mappō buddhology (dharmology?), I daresay more radical than Nichiren Buddhism, arguing that any significant Buddhic attainment of any sort is impossible in this time. Only the cultivation of faith & aspiration is possible, absolutely nothing else.

If you could clarify what you mean here by 'Abrahamic'? That is lumping together at least 3 very different religions into one, so which aspect of what they have in common were you meaning to stress?

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:07 am
by Grigoris
Stefos wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:17 am
And now, my friend, perhaps you understand why I've always said "modern Buddhism" and I've raised such a "fuss" about what I perceive is happening in Buddhadharma today...
So you believe that the only proper Buddhist approach is your approach. You want some sort of centralised dogmatism and not intelligent and informed discussion about how things fit into a Buddhist framework. You don't want "modern Buddhism" you want "catholic Buddhism", with a central and infallible "Buddhist pope" dictating what is or is not Buddhism. You want a Buddhism that is an institution, rather than a journey.
For me, A fundamental RE-understanding what the Buddha came to do and what he actually taught FIRST is the foundation.
And who's "first" is the actual first?
Beyond that, these discussions about Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc. along with peoples personal feelings about SMP need to be stopped.
And you are going to stop them? Not around here you are not.
Opinions matter little if the actual Buddhadharma is not being nailed down insofar as fundamentals are concerned according to the most ancient sutras available FIRST then we can discuss Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc.
The most ancient? The oldest physically existing Mahayana text is as old as the oldest physically existing Theravada text. What does that tell you?
...from the Theravada and Gandharan texts along with the Chinese texts...
Who died and made you the authority around here regarding text validity? This is "A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism", that's what the title at the top of the page says. If you don't like it...

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:05 pm
by DGA
What is SMP?

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:08 pm
by Tiago Simões
DGA wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:05 pm
What is SMP?
Take your pick:

https://www.google.pt/amp/s/www.urbandi ... P&amp=true

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:30 pm
by Grigoris
DGA wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:05 pm
What is SMP?
Sexuality, marriage, promiscuity, the subject of the thread. :roll:

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm
by Pero
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:03 pm
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra
Uh oh. :smile:
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:32 pm
How does having sex with prostitutes fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
Dude seriously? How does having sex with any woman fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:50 pm
by Grigoris
Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm
Dude seriously? How does having sex with any woman fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
Easily: you treat the women you have sex with, with the same amount of love and respect that you would afford your mother. The advice is metaphorical, not literal you dingbat! :tongue: