Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:55 pm
In reality, the Buddha said almost nothing about family life. He said absolutely nothing about monogamy, promiscuity, and so on. Why? These things belong to worldly social customs and really have nothing do with Dharma.
This.

In chunks of the Pali Canon I'm familiar with what I find is a general disillusionment with sensuality, including sex, where obviously 90% of the advice is for monks, and obviously simply comes from the renunciation point of view.

With the Maha Yana Canon, I don't even know why people bother citing this or that sutra as definitive on sexuality, if you count Chinese sources you can cherry pick the hell out of things to support any convenient position. As far as I'm concerned the Buddha said very little that would definitively apply to modern sexual politics.
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:14 pm

Stefos wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:42 am
Modern 'family values' did not exist in the Buddha's time, because people did not conceive of the nuclear family the way we do, fairly obviously. Neither did the silly 'sex postivity' one currently finds on the other end of the spectrum.
One can understand that, of course, "modern family values" which are joke by the way due to a LOT of issues with people and their images of the perfect man, woman, child, family, etc.

I asked for Textual sources sir.

Can you provide any for your particular stance please?

Thank you,
Stefos
:anjali:
I didn't mention a particular stance, other than that the Buddha (obviously) had little to say about modern sexual politics or ideas. I don't really feel like pulling anything up from access to insight because I'm on a mobile device.

Obviously though, if you are looking for Pali sources it is a mostly very dim view of sensual pursuits period, promiscuity would certainly fall under that, but the approach is so different from modern moralizing about it that there is no comparison really. That, and the fact advice on sex for celibate renunciation is obviously it's own deal.

The Buddha In Pali sources takes a negative view of household life period, that ain't no 'family' values.

Mahayana sources are all over the map...so exactly what kind of 'source' are you looking for?

Shore up your own ability to steer the conversation and be specific before complaining about not having sources etc.
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:14 pm
Stefos wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:42 am
Modern 'family values' did not exist in the Buddha's time, because people did not conceive of the nuclear family the way we do, fairly obviously. Neither did the silly 'sex postivity' one currently finds on the other end of the spectrum.
One can understand that, of course, "modern family values" which are joke by the way due to a LOT of issues with people and their images of the perfect man, woman, child, family, etc.

I asked for Textual sources sir.

Can you provide any for your particular stance please?

Thank you,
Stefos
:anjali:
I didn't mention a particular stance, other than that the Buddha (obviously) had little to say about modern sexual politics or ideas. I don't really feel like pulling anything up from access to insight because I'm on a mobile device.

Obviously though, if you are looking for Pali sources it is a mostly very dim view of sensual pursuits period, promiscuity would certainly fall under that, but the approach is so different from modern moralizing about it that there is no comparison really. That, and the fact advice on sex for celibate renunciation is obviously it's own deal.

The Buddha In Pali sources takes a negative view of household life period, that ain't no 'family' values.

Mahayana sources are all over the map...so exactly what kind of 'source' are you looking for?

Shore up your own ability to steer the conversation and be specific before complaining about not having sources etc.
When the Chinese were dismayed that they could not find any mention of such things as filial piety and so on, they composed sūtras to reinforce those values.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:44 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:59 pm
I hope he remembered all their anniversaries.
He's a Buddha, he knows EVERYTHING! Which is pretty handy if you are going to have 84,000 wives! :)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:57 pm
Just to add a bit more here, the Abhiniṣkramaṇa-sūtra states that the Buddha had three main wives, Gopa, Yaśodharā, and Mrigajā, as well as 60,000 other wives, that is to say, 20,000 wives as the retinue for the three main wives. Buddha's palace was literally crawling with wives.
Behold, the ultimate significance of the myriads of emanations Buddha Shakyamuni distributes through space

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26717

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by madhusudan » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:02 am

My understanding is that ethics within Dharma can change according to different yanas. In Mahayana the most important thing is Bodhicitta rather than the specific action.

So, if any type of sex is motivated by the intention to achieve complete enlightenment as quickly as possible for the sake of all sentient beings, then it would be the right action to perform.

Another way of looking at it is if sex is motivated by any of the 8 worldy winds, such as seeking after pleasure, then it would be mere clinging.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:03 am

if any type of sex is motivated by the intention to achieve complete enlightenment as quickly as possible for the sake of all sentient beings, then it would be the right action to perform.....
...my dear.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Stefos » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:09 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:14 pm

I didn't mention a particular stance, other than that the Buddha (obviously) had little to say about modern sexual politics or ideas. I don't really feel like pulling anything up from access to insight because I'm on a mobile device.

Obviously though, if you are looking for Pali sources it is a mostly very dim view of sensual pursuits period, promiscuity would certainly fall under that, but the approach is so different from modern moralizing about it that there is no comparison really. That, and the fact advice on sex for celibate renunciation is obviously it's own deal.

The Buddha In Pali sources takes a negative view of household life period, that ain't no 'family' values.

Mahayana sources are all over the map...so exactly what kind of 'source' are you looking for?

Shore up your own ability to steer the conversation and be specific before complaining about not having sources etc.
First, I wish I could go back and edit my original post......I can't now however.

Second, By sources I mean cite the Pali, Chinese, Tibetan or any Mahayana source.

Third, I'm not here to cause issues or to provoke anyone but rather just get a clear cut answer from the sutras ONLY.
People's opinions mean something to me but let's find out what the sources say........not what people of the modern day Left or Right socio-economical propaganda say.

That's it my friend............Stay cool.
:anjali:

Stefos
Last edited by Stefos on Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:10 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:03 am
if any type of sex is motivated by the intention to achieve complete enlightenment as quickly as possible for the sake of all sentient beings, then it would be the right action to perform.....
...my dear.
:rolling:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Stefos » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:13 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 pm
When the Chinese were dismayed that they could not find any mention of such things as filial piety and so on, they composed sūtras to reinforce those values.
And how do we Fair Folk know that the Pali redactors OR Tibetan redactors didn't compose sutras Malcolm?

What about the other 17-23 ancient schools and their positing of sexual behavior in regards to right action?

I have 2 valid questions here.

:anjali:

Stefos

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:34 am

Intelligent skepticism is only ever applied to other people's beliefs.

You should know that.
Stefos wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:13 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 pm
When the Chinese were dismayed that they could not find any mention of such things as filial piety and so on, they composed sūtras to reinforce those values.
And how do we Fair Folk know that the Pali redactors OR Tibetan redactors didn't compose sutras Malcolm?

What about the other 17-23 ancient schools and their positing of sexual behavior in regards to right action?

I have 2 valid questions here.

:anjali:

Stefos

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by madhusudan » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:56 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:03 am
if any type of sex is motivated by the intention to achieve complete enlightenment as quickly as possible for the sake of all sentient beings, then it would be the right action to perform.....
...my dear.
That's neat the way you used a nice word like dear for ridicule.

Some gurus use unconventional means to reach certain beings. I'm sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.

Ask Drukpa Kunley and he might penetrate more deeply into your mind than I can.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:06 am

madhusudan wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:56 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:03 am
if any type of sex is motivated by the intention to achieve complete enlightenment as quickly as possible for the sake of all sentient beings, then it would be the right action to perform.....
...my dear.
That's neat the way you used a nice word like dear for ridicule.

Some gurus use unconventional means to reach certain beings. I'm sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.

Ask Drukpa Kunley and he might penetrate more deeply into your mind than I can.
And if not he could always penetrate other things. :D

Seriously though, I don't think it was so much ridiculing as pointing out that some might use exactly such words to get laid.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:07 am

Not 100% sure about this but a married buddhist man can go see hookers on the side and not break the sexual misconduct precept. If a man were ever to do this in modern western society all hell would break loose and would be like an episode on jerry springer.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by liuzg150181 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:24 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:44 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:59 pm
I hope he remembered all their anniversaries.
He's a Buddha, he knows EVERYTHING! Which is pretty handy if you are going to have 84,000 wives! :)
It is safe to assume that everyday is birthday for at least one of the wives. :tongue:

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by justsit » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:30 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:07 am
Not 100% sure about this but a married buddhist man can go see hookers on the side and not break the sexual misconduct precept. If a man were ever to do this in modern western society all hell would break loose and would be like an episode on jerry springer.
Did you mean, "if a [married? buddhist?] man were ever to do this in modern western society and his wife found out all hell would break loose..."?

Because plenty of men - married and unmarried- in modern western society visit hookers. Not much data available on western male buddhist promiscuity.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by justsit » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:35 am

Reply to Stefos: if you are looking for sutta references you might try this https://dhammawheel.com//viewtopic.php?t=30046 recent thread from Dhamma Wheel.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:43 am

justsit wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:30 am
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:07 am
Not 100% sure about this but a married buddhist man can go see hookers on the side and not break the sexual misconduct precept. If a man were ever to do this in modern western society all hell would break loose and would be like an episode on jerry springer.
Did you mean, "if a [married? buddhist?] man were ever to do this in modern western society and his wife found out all hell would break loose..."?

Because plenty of men - married and unmarried- in modern western society visit hookers. Not much data available on western male buddhist promiscuity.
Correct but it is not socially acceptable behavior even for non-married men.
Last edited by Ricky on Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:53 am

Stefos wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:13 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 pm
When the Chinese were dismayed that they could not find any mention of such things as filial piety and so on, they composed sūtras to reinforce those values.
And how do we Fair Folk know that the Pali redactors OR Tibetan redactors didn't compose sutras Malcolm?
I'm not Malcolm, but I would like to propose an answer to your questions. First: scholars use evidence and reason to make their claims. The consensus of scholars is that there have been a number of sutras that are canonical in Chinese Buddhism but not in other traditions were composed in China for Chinese audiences. You can research this yourself if you are interested.

Do you have any evidence that any of the Pali or Tibetan redactors composed sutras? And if we suppose for the sake of argument that they did: what would that have to do with the topic at hand? Even if any of the Pali or Tibetan canon is apocryphal, you'd still find scarcely anything in it on the topic of family life for laypersons. This question looks like our old friend whataboutism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
What about the other 17-23 ancient schools and their positing of sexual behavior in regards to right action?
What about them? How are these ancient schools relevant to the discussion at hand? Again: this looks like whataboutism, comrade.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:23 am

If men are SNEAKING behind their partners backs seeing prostitutes or lovers...married or not....(IMHO) it's SEXUAL MISCONDUCT.

DUH.

Buddha didn't sneak around...did he ??????? Oh, i suppose it was expected of men anyways.....but NOT of women...thus, the DOUBLE STANDARD.
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