Lying; Is it Acceptable?

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Seek
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Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Seek » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:28 pm

How many believe that lying is acceptable IF it is done to prevent hurting another human being?

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Ayu
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Ayu » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:00 pm

For me "acceptable" is a strange term in this context. Let's consider, what is the purpose of the ten wholesome deeds, e.g. not-lying?
The purpose is not to harm anybbody and to accumulate merits while avoiding bad karma, I believe. The purpose is not "following rules without reason".

So, in most cases, bad karma is accumulated by lying and most of the time not-lying is possible in order to prevent harm from yourself and others.
In very rare cases one can prevent harm and help beings by lying.
Last edited by Ayu on Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SunWuKong
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:01 pm

Find out what the consequences are. I never believe a liar twice
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by kirtu » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:06 pm

Ayu wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:00 pm
In very rare cases one can prevent harm and help beings by lying.


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Grigoris
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:21 pm

Whether it is acceptable or not is irrelevant, either way there will be karmic consequences (vipaka).

Any action executed from a self-centred view is going to have stronger negative consequences.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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fuki
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 pm

Seek wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:28 pm
How many believe that lying is acceptable IF it is done to prevent hurting another human being?
Well if I would walk through a forest and I'd see a bunny/deer etc go one way, and after that a hunter might appear who asked me "did you see where the bunny/deer went?" I would probably send him in the opposite direction.

This example I raised once years ago on another forum where Venerable Huifeng said it (might be) is better to just say "I cannot tell you according to my religion" or something in that spirit.

Not sure if "acceptable" applies, but I get the point, I guess it depends on the situation and circumstance, sometime we aren't aware of lying but perhaps after we already did. I don't think there's an authority who can say "never lie" for me it depends on the situation. Precepts are general guidelines to me, not blind rules to follow, but mostly not lying is the best thing to do, as a vow it is powerful and can change one's (destructive) habits, but it depends.
If people lie to me I certainly don't condemn them or are bothered by it, often it's just a habit, it can be malicious, out of shame, or an attempt to prevent harm, the motive and whether it actually prevents harm, or if it's really avoidable relating to karma and whether the action is wise or not, depends and we can only know ourselfs in that specific moment, not through the judgment of others.
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Motova » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:19 pm

The speech and body non-virtues will be virtuous if motivated by Bodhicitta.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 pm

Depends on the particular situation. For example, if your wife asks you “Do these pants make me look fat?”, it’s acceptable to say no, even if they do make her look fat. :lol:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:41 pm

Seek wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:28 pm
How many believe that lying is acceptable IF it is done to prevent hurting another human being?
The bolded part is the important bit. The answer I think is yes, one canlie to help another being, but most of us do not. It is easy to convince oneself that one is lying for altruistic purposes, when 99.9% of the time it's definitely the opposite. If you are deeply pondering whether or not you should, you probably shouldn't, in my experience.
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:02 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:19 pm
The speech and body non-virtues will be virtuous if motivated by Bodhicitta.
Source?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Vasana » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:17 pm

Nine Considerations and Criteria for Benefiting Beings by Dza Patrul Rinpoche


'This concerns the ways in which bodhisattvas act to benefit beings.

Bodhisattvas who genuinely take the bodhisattva vow of ethical discipline do nothing but act for the benefit of beings, either directly or indirectly, but unless one is skilful in benefiting these beings, no matter how much one does, it might not benefit beings, but could actually be a direct or indirect cause of harm. Take account, therefore, of these nine considerations and criteria as you act for others' benefit:'


[...]'5. Consideration of vows and non-virtue
  • Even though you may hold vows of ethical conduct, if some sentient beings would be greatly aided and benefited solely by your committing a negative action, then, for the sake of others, and since it would be a training in spiritual accomplishment, you should act, committing any of the ten negative actions.[3]

    If you should see someone thinking of committing many "actions with immediate result"[4], such as killing numerous shravakas, pratyekabuddhas,[5] or bodhisattvas merely for the sake of some petty material goods, while you avoid the karmic result, even taking their life with a loving motivation would not be a negative action, but would actually accrue a great deal of merit.[6]

    If a bodhisattva has the power, and sees robbers and the like stealing many offerings to shrines or monastic goods, then, with a loving attitude he should reappropriate them and restore them to their place in the monastery or shrine. In that way, the action of a bodhisattva who takes what is not given,

    and also of a bodhisattva who, out of compassion, engages in sexual intercourse with a laywoman who has no spouse and is tormented by sexual desire, although nominally negative, count as virtuous.

    Also:

    uttering various falsehoods, if as a means to save many beings' lives, or to prevent them being captured and having their limbs cut off, and so on;

    out of loving kindness, disparaging and spreading discord to separate people from false spiritual guides and non-virtuous friends to whom they have become attached;

    if talking calmly does not deter them, speaking very harshly to and humiliating, out of love, those who have fallen into error and negative behaviour;

    if someone is very stressed and miserable, and enjoys such pleasures as song, dance, music, joking chit-chat and so on, then, out of love, cheering them up with various kinds of idle talk – dancing, singing, playing various kinds of music, and teasing banter –

    These actions lead to virtue and are not an occasion for committing the three negative mental actions,[7] it is said. Rather, they become an exercise in accomplishing others' benefit.

    Moreover:

    If you see destitute people or beggars, and you have no items that you can give them yourself, but see a rich and miserly person, and take this miser's food and goods by various means, motivated by love, and give them to the poor, this covetous wondering about and longing for another's food and goods;

    acting to destroy some people who have become dangerously hostile to teachers, the Sangha, and so on – to the Three Jewels[8] – out of a fierce wish to harm their bodies, and their lives;

    sometimes teaching a "wrong view"[9] to those who are devoted to wrong views and conduct, out of love and for their benefit, in order that, by teaching them the wrong view, they may be brought under your control and drawn towards the correct view—

    All of these ten actions are not negative, and, on the contrary, accrue a great deal of merit.

    As it says in the Twenty Verses on the Vows,[10] "In whoever has a loving heart, there is no non-virtue".

    If such a basis of non-virtue might later become a cause of quarrelling, or of strife among the Sangha, or might destroy the faith of many people of faith and cause wrong views to develop, then as a beginner, you should not act.'
http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... iderations
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:29 pm

Vasana wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:17 pm
Nine Considerations and Criteria for Benefiting Beings by Dza Patrul Rinpoche...
Yes, but this does not say that this makes the actions virtuous, or somehow annuls the vipaka.

Actually, one of the reasons the Bodhisattva path takes so long is because of the vipaka accrued through one's actions in the service of sentient beings.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Vasana
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Vasana » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:29 pm
Vasana wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:17 pm
Nine Considerations and Criteria for Benefiting Beings by Dza Patrul Rinpoche...
Yes, but this does not say that this makes the actions virtuous, or somehow annuls the vipaka.
as above;

'All of these ten actions are not negative, and, on the contrary, accrue a great deal of merit.

As it says in the Twenty Verses on the Vows,[10] "In whoever has a loving heart, there is no non-virtue".

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:29 pm
Actually, one of the reasons the Bodhisattva path takes so long is because of the vipaka accrued through one's actions in the service of sentient beings.
I suppose that depends on the basis of how many of a Bodhisattvas' actions/paramitas in the service of beings are engaged with prajna-paramita. I'm not sure vipaka functions as usual when correctly absorbed with Prajna. Plus there are worldy virtues and liberative virtues. Liberative virtues dedicated towards the liberation of beings will only bring about conditions conducive to realization afaik.

As for it being a path that takes long, 3 countless aeons etc...I sometimes wonder if that sentiment is just a pedagogical method for encouraging people towards the swifter paths made available in this degenerate age. And secondly, 3 countless aeons is probably not a big deal for a Bodhisattva on the Bhumis who has ceased grasping at entities arising or not arising. For the rest of us,

Image
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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:24 pm

Vasana wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:12 pm
as above;

'All of these ten actions are not negative, and, on the contrary, accrue a great deal of merit.

As it says in the Twenty Verses on the Vows,[10] "In whoever has a loving heart, there is no non-virtue".
Ooooopsss... sorry, I mistakenly overlooked that bit!

At the same time he does say:
would be greatly aided and benefited solely by your committing a negative action
Personally I like Jigten Sumgon's position (a rather unorthodox one, by the way) that specific actions have their specific karma vipaka but these outcomes can be affected, though not completely mitigated, by the motivation. I think it successfully manages to wed the Sutta view on karma vipaka with the Bodhisattva view.

You can find it in Section IV number 10 of the text Gongchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Brunelleschi » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:03 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:21 pm
Whether it is acceptable or not is irrelevant, either way there will be karmic consequences (vipaka).

Any action executed from a self-centred view is going to have stronger negative consequences.
Agreed. This is an important concept to remember. Consequences are not judged by some exterior force - it's more like a force of nature. Actions have consequences and that's basically that.

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by MatthewAngby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:41 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:21 pm
Whether it is acceptable or not is irrelevant, either way there will be karmic consequences (vipaka).

Any action executed from a self-centred view is going to have stronger negative consequences.
Why would lying be a bad karmic consequence ? Can u elaborate more?

And also, how come any action executed from a self centered thought will have stronger negative consequences? Can u also elaborate and explain more on this statement?

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:22 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:41 am
Why would lying be a bad karmic consequence ? Can u elaborate more?
Tell me why you think lying would have negative consequences.
And also, how come any action executed from a self centered thought will have stronger negative consequences? Can u also elaborate and explain more on this statement?
Why do you think that actions executed from a self-centered point of view would have stronger negative consequences.

To all the others participating in this thread: please let our young friend have a bash at the question. It is important for him to be able to find his own answers, especially to questions that he essentially knows the answers to.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by The Cicada » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:55 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:41 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:21 pm
Whether it is acceptable or not is irrelevant, either way there will be karmic consequences (vipaka).

Any action executed from a self-centred view is going to have stronger negative consequences.
Why would lying be a bad karmic consequence ? Can u elaborate more?
Suppose you had a girlfriend that you were unfaithful to several times. She discovers that you lied to her and leaves you, and so you gain a reputation as a womanizer. Because you have gained such a reputation, many women of dubious intent pursue you constantly, and your next girlfriend is always jealous and physically fights other women over you.

This is cause and effect.

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by MatthewAngby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:21 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:22 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:41 am
Why would lying be a bad karmic consequence ? Can u elaborate more?
Tell me why you think lying would have negative consequences.
And also, how come any action executed from a self centered thought will have stronger negative consequences? Can u also elaborate and explain more on this statement?
Why do you think that actions executed from a self-centered point of view would have stronger negative consequences.

To all the others participating in this thread: please let our young friend have a bash at the question. It is important for him to be able to find his own answers, especially to questions that he essentially knows the answers to.
First off, I do not know why is it like this and I don’t wssentialy know the answer. Some Buddhist concepts I question. Always I ask is what is the state of mind during these actions - I see that in this case of lying , If we do it with no negative mental factors and have a mind full of compassion - ( this case is where the robber ask me where his victim has went fiy ). If I tell a lie , I would cause both of them no harm and I don’t think I would have a mind of negative mental factors. I always compare it like that , remember how in one of the stories , one man put a shoe on a Buddha’s head with great motivation , and another put it down also because of his great motivation. Both accrued merits u see. So I don’t understand in the case of lying , why is this so focused on external actions? I consider motivation most important. Then u say ok , motivation is important but u still accrue bad karma for lying. But then ask yourselves , if we didn’t commit lying due to the negative mental emotions and factors and if we lie with good intentions and instead protect the robber and the victim from harm, why will we suffer? Why will we suffer because of a mere physical action?

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Re: Lying; Is it Acceptable?

Post by MatthewAngby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:22 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:41 am
Why would lying be a bad karmic consequence ? Can u elaborate more?
Tell me why you think lying would have negative consequences.
And also, how come any action executed from a self centered thought will have stronger negative consequences? Can u also elaborate and explain more on this statement?
Why do you think that actions executed from a self-centered point of view would have stronger negative consequences.

To all the others participating in this thread: please let our young friend have a bash at the question. It is important for him to be able to find his own answers, especially to questions that he essentially knows the answers to.
And for the second question about self centered point of view, I really do not understand. So please do elaborate more.

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