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Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:24 pm
by deirdre
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:10 am
My truth is what Tennessee Williams wrote in "Night of the Iguana," - the only behavior I see that's ugly or wrong in humanity is unkindness.
If someone believes they are acting kindly to someone, when that person finds the action harmful, but there is no way of communicating the difference, you now have the person believing they are acting kindly when they are actually removing the individual's agency.
Perhaps one of the best examples of this is central to things that many people claim are feminist issues, when a full-grown adult who happens to also be a woman, gets treated as if she were a child and in great need of external help.

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:20 am
by TharpaChodron
deirdre wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:24 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:10 am
My truth is what Tennessee Williams wrote in "Night of the Iguana," - the only behavior I see that's ugly or wrong in humanity is unkindness.
If someone believes they are acting kindly to someone, when that person finds the action harmful, but there is no way of communicating the difference, you now have the person believing they are acting kindly when they are actually removing the individual's agency.
Perhaps one of the best examples of this is central to things that many people claim are feminist issues, when a full-grown adult who happens to also be a woman, gets treated as if she were a child and in great need of external help.
Sorry I don't follow your train of thought. Could you explain further?

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:23 am
by Yavana
deirdre wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:24 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:10 am
My truth is what Tennessee Williams wrote in "Night of the Iguana," - the only behavior I see that's ugly or wrong in humanity is unkindness.
If someone believes they are acting kindly to someone, when that person finds the action harmful, but there is no way of communicating the difference, you now have the person believing they are acting kindly when they are actually removing the individual's agency.
Perhaps one of the best examples of this is central to things that many people claim are feminist issues, when a full-grown adult who happens to also be a woman, gets treated as if she were a child and in great need of external help.
Very true. :good:

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 am
by TharpaChodron
Yavana wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:23 am
deirdre wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:24 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:10 am
My truth is what Tennessee Williams wrote in "Night of the Iguana," - the only behavior I see that's ugly or wrong in humanity is unkindness.
If someone believes they are acting kindly to someone, when that person finds the action harmful, but there is no way of communicating the difference, you now have the person believing they are acting kindly when they are actually removing the individual's agency.
Perhaps one of the best examples of this is central to things that many people claim are feminist issues, when a full-grown adult who happens to also be a woman, gets treated as if she were a child and in great need of external help.
Very true. :good:
I'm sorry, but when you bring up feminism in the topic randomly and then there's no good reason for what you are implying, it leaves a lot to be explained. I'm thinking you are implying that women use feminism as an excuse for childish behavior? Kind of a simplistic response and a bit of #mansplaining #misogyny there. But...maybe I'm off base. :roll:

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:37 pm
by catmoon
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 am


I'm sorry, but when you bring up feminism in the topic randomly and then there's no good reason for what you are implying, it leaves a lot to be explained. I'm thinking you are implying that women use feminism as an excuse for childish behavior? Kind of a simplistic response and a bit of #mansplaining #misogyny there. But...maybe I'm off base. :roll:

Off base? I'd have to reserve judgement on that one, at least until you tell me how all this applies to the OP's question.

Re: Lying

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:23 pm
by Nicholas Weeks
From the Perfection of Generosity Sutra:
[Buddha speaks]: “How do bodhisattvas abandon lying? Noble son, bodhisattvas do so by
reflecting in this way: ‘Even yakṣas, bhūtas, and piśācas are fond of the truth;
they cherish it, like it, and enjoy it. I am also fond of the truth; I, too, cherish it,
like it, and enjoy it. Therefore, just as I want no one to deceive me, order
someone to deceive me, or rejoice in someone deceiving me by telling lies, I
myself will never deceive, order someone to deceive, or rejoice in anyone being
deceived by lies!’ Noble son, this is how bodhisattva great beings abandon lying.
Regarding this, it is said:

The wise who are fond of the truth,
As even yakṣas and bhūtas are,
Should never deceive others
By telling lies.

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:43 pm
by nowmindful
All people tell lies unless he or she is mute, such as saying small white lies, saying things that are not accurate to realities whether intentionally or not, changing decisions after words were said, etc. Very common is time: can you very make sure you can say the exact current time if being asked? Being late for meeting people also considered as lying as not keeping promises.

Buddhist doctrines are not based on faith, but on investigation. I found this Buddha quote in other website: "Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances. Find out for yourself what is true and virtuous."

We lie for reasons or unwittingly. But make sure that the actions are wholesome to others and self. Try to be flexible.

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:36 pm
by well wisher
nowmindful wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:43 pm
All people tell lies unless he or she is mute, such as saying small white lies, saying things that are not accurate to realities whether intentionally or not, changing decisions after words were said, etc. Very common is time: can you very make sure you can say the exact current time if being asked? Being late for meeting people also considered as lying as not keeping promises.

Buddhist doctrines are not based on faith, but on investigation. I found this Buddha quote in other website: "Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances. Find out for yourself what is true and virtuous."

We lie for reasons or unwittingly. But make sure that the actions are wholesome to others and self. Try to be flexible.
:good:
Each person has their own different karma and circumstances, different versions of personal realities and truths - at least in conventional and samsaric existence, including us humans.
But generally, much of the strife in huge part caused by too much excessive desires and wanting, which often lying and deceitful behaviors is borned out of.
I would also add that if is not based on solid objective evidences in actual reality and experiences and/or if it is not practical - then it is not worthy of consideration, and can be considered simply just wrong for all practical intents and purposes - at least for this life anyways. Blind faith and forced obedience, without full understanding is just plain wrong.

Truth is generally the best policy and the most solid ground to go by. Although speaking about the objective truth, or even in support of it, seems to generate much more controversies in the modern degenerate era than in the past. As many modern tyrants and power-obsessed authorities seek to silence out the "inconvenient truth" that goes against their own beliefs and versions of "personal truths" and selfish personal agendas.

Thus there are many reasons why, and many people who do advise that silence is golden, even for personal-safety purposes and conflict avoidance/etc. Now if you will excuse me... ;)

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:15 am
by SteRo
Lying inevitably entails its negative results. Are these negative results acceptable? :shrug:

Lying may also have results that the liar considers to be positive and are the intentional basis for her/his lying. Would I share her/his assessment? :shrug:

How to weigh definite negative and assumed positive results? :shrug:

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:54 pm
by monkishlife
nowmindful wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:43 pm
All people tell lies unless he or she is mute, such as saying small white lies, saying things that are not accurate to realities whether intentionally or not, changing decisions after words were said, etc. Very common is time: can you very make sure you can say the exact current time if being asked? Being late for meeting people also considered as lying as not keeping promises.

Buddhist doctrines are not based on faith, but on investigation. I found this Buddha quote in other website: "Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances. Find out for yourself what is true and virtuous."

We lie for reasons or unwittingly. But make sure that the actions are wholesome to others and self. Try to be flexible.

It all depends what our intent was in lying. Therein lies the issue.

Lying to escape embarrassment or harassment is very, very different that lying to get someone fired from his or her job. Likewise, lying out of vanity is not the same thing as lying to protect your family.

It's really common sense.

Peace and enlightenment to all.

Re: Lying: Is it Acceptable?

Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:29 pm
by Injrabodi
The Mahavairocana Sutra presents a list of actions that one should never do, such as killing, stealing, lying, idle chatter. However in the next section it provides specific situations in which it's acceptable to commit the previous offenses.

It's okay to kill in order to save lives, it's okay to steal in order to provide for the hungry, it's okay to speak idle chatter if it brings warmth and love to those around you.

However in this text, lying is unacceptable under any and all circumstances.