Jobs that serve alcohol?

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Arupajhana7
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Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Arupajhana7 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:24 pm

Hello,

I recently moved into an appartment that has high rent expenses. I have one job delivering pizza that shouldn't be problematic in terms of ethics but it is not enough to pay my rent plus groceries and utilities. I am looking into restaurant and catering food service jobs for part time work that pays well and should make my financial life more stable.
The ethical concern is that these well paying part time jobs would all include serving people alcohol along with food. What do people think about the ethics in this?

In the long term I am trying to go back to school so that I could become a mental health counselor in a high school, which would be much more in line with Buddhist ethics. The apartment I live in is close to the school I intend to go to and it is one of the less expensive apartments in the area despite it being expensive to me due to my income.

I myself do drink alcohol on occasion. Sometimes I go a period of time taking the 5 lay persons precepts in the mornings and on those days I will not drink any alcohol. Sometimes, if I am going to a family event where it might be rude or awkward to refuse wine, I will skip the alcohol precept on that day. But for the most part it would mean going a month or so of strictly following all 5 precepts. I am comfortable in using this as my own personal practice but I have more concerns about serving alcohol to others. It is possible, for example, that at one of these jobs I may be serving alcohol to people who are alcoholic or struggling with addiction. I don't want to enable that kind of suffering in people's lives.

On the other hand, if I don't take one of these part time jobs, I might not be able to meet the demands of my bills and the consequences of that would be very severe for me.

Any thoughts?

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Aryjna
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Aryjna » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:21 pm

Working in a restaurant also involves a relationship with the meat industry, especially in the case of restaurant chains that have a direct relationship to slaughterhouses. Then again, I do not thing it is wrong to work there in the capacity of a waiter or something similar, not more wrong that most other jobs at least. It is probably mostly a matter of personal outlook and motivation.

Arupajhana7
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Arupajhana7 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:39 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:21 pm
Working in a restaurant also involves a relationship with the meat industry, especially in the case of restaurant chains that have a direct relationship to slaughterhouses. Then again, I do not thing it is wrong to work there in the capacity of a waiter or something similar, not more wrong that most other jobs at least. It is probably mostly a matter of personal outlook and motivation.
This is a good point.
Do catering companies have a less direct relationship with the meat industry than restaurants do?

There are a couple of vegetarian restaurants in the area, I will look into some of those but there are less of those than there are other restaurants so the probability of getting a job with one of them is lower.

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Aryjna
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Aryjna » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:23 pm

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:39 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:21 pm
Working in a restaurant also involves a relationship with the meat industry, especially in the case of restaurant chains that have a direct relationship to slaughterhouses. Then again, I do not thing it is wrong to work there in the capacity of a waiter or something similar, not more wrong that most other jobs at least. It is probably mostly a matter of personal outlook and motivation.
This is a good point.
Do catering companies have a less direct relationship with the meat industry than restaurants do?

There are a couple of vegetarian restaurants in the area, I will look into some of those but there are less of those than there are other restaurants so the probability of getting a job with one of them is lower.
I don't know, it depends on the place I suppose. Some places just order from markets while others may have an agreement with a slaughterhouse. But I doubt that it really qualifies as a job contrary to the dharma to work in a place like that for some time.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:56 pm

The precept against becoming intoxicated only applies to those who become intoxicated.
Its purpose is to prevent lapses in the practice habits and concentration of the meditator.

Ethical purity is also an ego trip.
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humble.student
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by humble.student » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:15 pm

From the Bodhisattva Precepts (Brahma Net Sutra):
The Ten Major Precepts

5. Selling Alcohol
“Buddha-Sons, one should not sell alcohol or incite others to sell alcohol, through any causes, conditions, methods, or karmas. One should not sell any kind of alcohol because it can cause one to commit sins.
“A Bodhisattva should bring clear wisdom out of sentient beings. If he instead causes them to muddle their minds, it is a parājika sin.
The Forty-eight Minor Precepts

2. Drinking Alcohol
“Buddha-Sons, one should not purposely drink alcohol, which causes innumerable faults. If one hands out vessels for alcohol to drinkers, one will not have hands for five hundred lives; much more severe will be the consequences of one’s own drinking. One should not incite sentient beings, including humans, to drink alcohol. If a Bodhisattva drinks or incites others to drink alcohol, it is a minor sin.
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra32.html

Not to be pedantic, but with regards the first instance, selling alcohol, one would need to clearly define 'sell' in order for this transgression to take place. i.e. does a lowly bartender actually 'sell' the alcohol, or is it the owner of the establishment in question?

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seeker242
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by seeker242 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:55 pm

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:24 pm
The ethical concern is that these well paying part time jobs would all include serving people alcohol along with food. What do people think about the ethics in this?
That it's a non-issue, just as long as you are not actively pushing it, making sales pitches for it, etc. For example, if you try and convince someone to purchase vodka, instead of iced tea, because vodka cost more and you will get a bigger tip if they spend more, I would see an issue with that. However, if someone says "I want vodka" and you say "ok" and bring them some, I don't see an issue.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

ford_truckin
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by ford_truckin » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:04 am

Serving poison is just as bad as drinking it.

amanitamusc
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:33 am

ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:04 am
Serving poison is just as bad as drinking it.
You so Hina.

shaunc
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by shaunc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:31 am

The 5 precepts are guided to help us live our lives in a peaceful and harmless way. However you're the one that decided to take them, not the punters in the restaurant you work at.
We all have to survive in this world and sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do.
If I'm a customer in a restaurant and I ask for alcohol it's your job to serve it to me, after all isn't that what the owner is paying you to do.
Most countries have laws regarding the sale of alcohol to minors and intoxicated people etc.

Yellow_13
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Yellow_13 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:41 am

I have a question: if you work in delivery, for one of these "food delivery" services, the ones that offer to buy a meal for the client in a restaurant and bring it to them, and that your client orders alcohol, is it bad to do so? You're not involved in the choice, just in the delivery, but you're still delivering alcohol. Should one then refuse the order?
It's not my situation, but I know that some people may have to resort to such gig jobs for a living, even if for a short time.

ford_truckin
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by ford_truckin » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:18 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:33 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:04 am
Serving poison is just as bad as drinking it.
You so Hina.
:rolling:

Then I'm happy to be.

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Grigoris
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:22 pm

I used to work as a bar man and keep the fifth precept.

The fifth precept is voluntary and a personal choice. You cannot enforce temperance on others. In some Thervada countries you cannot sell alcohol on certain days. In many Muslim countries you are not allowed to sell alcohol at all, and yet people still manage to find ways to buy and consume it.

As for the Bodhisattva vows...

Are you talking about the Bodhisattva vows or the precepts?

Anyway, if people did not sell alcohol where would I get it from for my puja?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Meh, just don't overserve people. Working at a bar you might have an issue, just a restaurant I wouldn't think there's much to worry about.
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Grigoris
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:54 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:52 pm
Meh, just don't overserve people. Working at a bar you might have an issue, just a restaurant I wouldn't think there's much to worry about.
I would regularly refuse to serve people if I saw they were already drunk.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by pemachophel » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:59 pm

Guru Rinpoche said something to the effect that, "My view is higher than the sky but my attention to karma is as fine as flour." (Sorry, don't have the exact words.)

So, what do you think Guru Rinpoche would say about making, selling, serving, or delivering alcohol for the purpose of earning one's personal livelihood?

(I'm not talking about the behavior of a Siddha here. So please don't bring that red herring into this argument.)
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Boomerang
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Boomerang » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:19 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:59 pm
Guru Rinpoche said something to the effect that, "My view is higher than the sky but my attention to karma is as fine as flour." (Sorry, don't have the exact words.)

So, what do you think Guru Rinpoche would say about making, selling, serving, or delivering alcohol for the purpose of earning one's personal livelihood?

(I'm not talking about the behavior of a Siddha here. So please don't bring that red herring into this argument.)
I suspect that he would be against a person directly receiving tips for selling alcohol, but he would be okay with a person working for a company that sells alcohol. Maybe Arupajhana7 could come to an agreement with an employer where they give all the tips to the company in exchange for an hourly salary.

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Malcolm
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:25 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:59 pm
So, what do you think Guru Rinpoche would say about making, selling, serving, or delivering alcohol for the purpose of earning one's personal livelihood?
Not much, actually. On the other hand, one does not want to wind up like these two clowns:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... r-13636147
Two Buddhist monks were injured last night when they had a whisky-fuelled knife fight following an argument about spirituality.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

ford_truckin
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by ford_truckin » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:02 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:22 pm
I used to work as a bar man and keep the fifth precept.

The fifth precept is voluntary and a personal choice. You cannot enforce temperance on others. In some Thervada countries you cannot sell alcohol on certain days. In many Muslim countries you are not allowed to sell alcohol at all, and yet people still manage to find ways to buy and consume it.

As for the Bodhisattva vows...

Are you talking about the Bodhisattva vows or the precepts?

Anyway, if people did not sell alcohol where would I get it from for my puja?
Why would you want others to keep accumulating bad karma by selling alcohol so you can have some for your puja?

Maybe learn how to make some at home if you need it badly. That way you aren't supporting an industry that contributes to many social ills, misery, and death worldwide.

Just my 2 cents.

ford_truckin
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by ford_truckin » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:05 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:25 pm
pemachophel wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:59 pm
So, what do you think Guru Rinpoche would say about making, selling, serving, or delivering alcohol for the purpose of earning one's personal livelihood?
Not much, actually. On the other hand, one does not want to wind up like these two clowns:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... r-13636147
Two Buddhist monks were injured last night when they had a whisky-fuelled knife fight following an argument about spirituality.
What an embarrassment to Buddhism.

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