Jobs that serve alcohol?

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Malcolm
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:29 pm Oh... Just to be clear...

I uphold the fifth precept, but still engage in ritual use of alcohol twice a month.
I drink wine ritually too, every day, more or less.
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by pemachophel »

According to Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen, the tshog chang is amrit and not/no longer alcohol. So it does not violate the fifth precept.
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Malcolm
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:05 am According to Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen, the tshog chang is amrit and not/no longer alcohol. So it does not violate the fifth precept.
Can't violate it if you don't hold it. Observing the pratinokṣa vows is a choice, not an obligation. And the fifth precept with respect to laypeople is really the fourth, actually, since if you do not forgo drinking alcohol, you also do not possess the precept of avoiding sexual misconduct (on the theory that the former will lead to the latter).
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Just wanna throw this out there from a conventional point of view:

Cultures where healthy use of alcohol is encouraged from an early-ish age (for instance, some wine with dinner etc.) tend to have a lower incidence of binge alcohol use (and by extension, arguably what is typically termed alcoholism due to it's obviously negative effects) than cultures where booze is simply a thing to get drunk on. So, the implicit social status of what alcohol is (a pleasant thing to enjoy socially vs. something to remove you from reality) makes a huge difference in how it is used.

So yeah, the relevancy to this conversation is that there is some evidence that people who are able to create healthy patterns around their alcohol use by having small amounts regularly in healthy situations are actually less susceptible to abusing alcohol in life, all other things being equal.

Individuals of course have certain physiological predispositions and whatnot, but a considerable part of what makes alcohol "bad" is people's social and psychological conditioning surrounding it, this is actually proven. Plenty of times this conditioning is not reversible once it's in place of course, but the drinking culture of a given society has a lot to do with how people use alcohol, particularly young people, and whether it turns into something that leads to heartache later on.

Incidentally and for the record, I don't drink, I quit quite some time ago, briefly entertained the idea I could drink healthily, then realized that I am one of the people who cannot do so, for who knows what combination of reasons. So for me the Fifth Precept is fairly literal, the use of alcohol causes me to be heedless to enough of a degree that it removes me from my Dharma practice and puts me on a bad path. We have to be unflinchingly honest with ourselves on these things. There is simply actual evidence that not only is this not so for everyone, but that some people are 'inoculated' from the sort of relationship I now have with alcohol by being around the right combination of social factors, and learning to drink healthily. It's not wise to ignore that, in my opinion, it also accords with the Mahayana/Vajrayana attitude towards ethical reasoning on alcohol. Hopefully the manifestation of "poison as medicine" is not lost in this scenario, and perhaps speaks to a less specified reason for it's ritual use, of course that's speculation on my part entirely...but I think it has some backing in notions within the actual tradition, however obscured. More traditional teachers might adopt a Hinayana stance towards it, but this is obviously not the only stance out there. I'm all for the safe approach, but let's be honest.

As and addiction counselor, and someone with a little actual education on the subject, I can say with some confidence that puritanical ideas towards alcohol use do nothing to prevent alcoholism, and in some cases might create the very kind of black and white thinking about the substance that makes binge use more attractive to people who are predisposed to it.
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Grigoris
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Grigoris »

One can really make the same argument with anything: from food, to alcohol, to... Addictive behaviour seems to be the problem, not the actual object of addiction itself.

This is not to say that some substances are not physically addictive, but this seems to play a much smaller role than the mental addiction.

Social and personal circumstances also play a major role, such that, even non-addicitive objects can become sources of addiction.

Case in point:



I imagine people can think of many other examples.

But is the heedlessness caused by intoxicants any different to the heedlessness caused by, say: social media?
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by pemachophel »

"And the fifth precept with respect to laypeople is really the fourth, actually, since if you do not forgo drinking alcohol, you also do not possess the precept of avoiding sexual misconduct (on the theory that the former will lead to the latter)."

Apropos of this, there's a Lama, maybe Kagyud, (Whose name I cannot dredge up) Who won't give any of the other four precepts if you don't take the fifth for this very reason. Since alcohol diminishes mindfulness and knowing what should and should not be done -- drenpa and sheshin -- it makes any of the preceding four all the more easy to break, not just sex.

IME, the problem with alcohol is that you don't necessarily know you've drunk too much, and when you do, it's already too late.
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Malcolm
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:22 pm "And the fifth precept with respect to laypeople is really the fourth, actually, since if you do not forgo drinking alcohol, you also do not possess the precept of avoiding sexual misconduct (on the theory that the former will lead to the latter)."

Apropos of this, there's a Lama, maybe Kagyud, (Whose name I cannot dredge up) Who won't give any of the other four precepts if you don't take the fifth for this very reason. Since alcohol diminishes mindfulness and knowing what should and should not be done -- drenpa and sheshin -- it makes any of the preceding four all the more easy to break, not just sex.

IME, the problem with alcohol is that you don't necessarily know you've drunk too much, and when you do, it's already too late.

Nevertheless, a four vow holder holds the vows of refuge, as well as the the precept of not taking life, not stealing, and not lying. This is how it is classified in the three vows.

But of course, as Mahāyānis, the principle of the precepts is not the physical action, but rather, the intention behind the action -- for this reason, Mahāyāna bhikṣus may handle money, associated with women, and so on, because much of what is prohibited in Śrāvakayāna vows is permitted in Mahāyāna and vice verse. The Trisamvara Chapter of the Ratnakuta goes into this at length, as does Sakya Paṇḍita in his Distinguishing the Three Vows.

Also, having a beer or a glass of wine, or even a whole bottle of wine, does not necessarily imply that one must lose one's mindfulness. It depends on one's capacity.
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by MiphamFan »

pemachophel wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:09 pm Tulzhug Lingpa, a.k.a. Duddul Rolpai Dorje, a well-known Terton of the mid-20th century and student of both H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, and Chatral Sangay Dorje, wrote a small book on the importance of avoiding alcohol for Buddhist practitioners -- The Youthful Armor for Those Who Want Liberation. The first half of the book is written based on sutric admonitions. However, the second half of the book is a counsel against Tantrikas indulging in alcohol. Here's one paragraph:

"One named Jnana [probably Dudjom Rinpoche] said, 'To use Vajrayana as an excuse to carelessly indulge in meat and alcohol is a sign of being a charlatan.' And also, 'To eat food which is apportioned to a realized practitioner when one does not have that portion of practice is a sign of being a charlatan.'"

And another:

"It is not acceptable to drink alcohol and use Dharma as an excuse. Not even one of the Tantras, instruction texts, or pith instructions allows a person on the gradual path to consume alcohol. So it would be accumulating negative karma based on the Dharma. It is said that this negative action is worse than any other negative action."
But according to Thomas Shor's book, Trulshuk Lingpa still got drunk on occasion?
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by pemachophel »

Mipham Fan,

Yes, you're right. In Tulzhug Lingpa's pamphlet, He makes it clear that one has to have reached a certain spiritual level before indulging in alcohol. He must've figured He was at that level. Don't have time now to quote from that pamphlet on this -- getting ready for tshog. Maybe will have time later today.

His Daughter, Sangyum Kamala was the publisher of this pamphlet. When staying with us a few weeks ago, She had a tablespoon of whisky every night before bed to help Her sleep.
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Kris
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Re: Jobs that serve alcohol?

Post by Kris »

Yes, I'll take a shot of Remy XO on the rocks please and thanks :cheers:
Eyes salmon dish. Yummy. :P
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