Jobs that serve alcohol?

[Grigoris]

Why would you want others to keep accumulating bad karma by selling alcohol so you can have some for your puja?

Maybe learn how to make some at home if you need it badly. That way you aren't supporting an industry that contributes to many social ills, misery, and death worldwide.

Just my 2 cents.

Welcome to samsara, where something as basic and essential as food contributes to social ills, misery and death worldwide.

BTW, others are going to keep accumulating bad karma whether I personally buy their alcohol or not. Yah know?

I can choose not to buy and consume the alcohol they produce and thus feel all sanctimonious and holy, but they will keep producing it.

[Grigoris]

If somebody is not a Buddhist they are not compelled to keep the five precepts.

Even if somebody is a Buddhist they are not compelled to keep the five precepts, they are VOLUNTARY.

If you want to keep the precepts and accumulate merit for yourself, then good for you! Go for it!

But taking the precepts so you can judge others and feel superior, means you have failed to understand their true value.

You have to remember that the precepts exist within the broader context of Buddhism, they are a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

YOU keep YOUR precepts, you cannot be responsible for the behavior of others.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Also, the precepts are "training rules", not unbreakable vows that you flog yourself and others for when you slip up or encounter some moral grey area, they are training, not something one gets to brag about.

[Grigoris]

BTW The "rule" against selling intoxicants is in the Eightfold Noble Path, under Right Livelihood, not in the precepts.

As such, there is a difference between serving (as a waiter) and selling alcohol (as a restaurant owner).

[pemachophel]

"As such, there is a difference between serving (as a waiter) and selling alcohol (as a restaurant owner)."

Are you really serious about this?

[Grigoris]

"As such, there is a difference between serving (as a waiter) and selling alcohol (as a restaurant owner)."

Are you really serious about this?

Yes. Why wouldn't I be?

Is the lady that cleans the restaurant "culpable" too? She is also helping the owner sell alcohol, by ensuring that the environment is pleasing for those buying.

Where do you draw the line?

If you want to engage in Right Livelihood you should not sell alcohol. If you want to keep the fifth precept you should not drink alcohol.

Shall we deal with the Bodhisattva Vow now?

[Malcolm]

Why would you want others to keep accumulating bad karma by selling alcohol so you can have some for your puja?

Maybe learn how to make some at home if you need it badly. That way you aren't supporting an industry that contributes to many social ills, misery, and death worldwide.

The precept against drinking is the only one of the five precepts that is a prohibition as opposed to a natural nonvirtue. Thus, brewing, selling, and consuming alcohol is not nonvirtuous by nature. The consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to nonvirtuous deeds, but those for whom this is case should refrain from drinking.

[Johnny Dangerous]

The precept says nothing about "alcohol is a poison", or "alcohol is inherently bad so don't have anything to do with it". There are other teachings that certainly might say things like this, and we should adhere to the teachings which are definitive for us. If one is simply following the fifth precept though, then one just avoids intoxication which causes heedlessness, not much more to it than that from my point of view.

As far as Right Livelihood, IMO there is a certainly a substantial difference between someone who sells alcohol exclusively for a living, and someone who serves it as an incidental part of their job (waiter at a restaurant serving beer and wine, as one example). Also as I mentioned, if one does something like work at a bar, one will likely be put into situations which certainly would test one's Right livelihood - deciding to serve alcoholic regular customers for example.

Just working at a restaurant though? Objecting to that is just overzealous moralizing, from my point of view, not application of Buddhist ethics.

[Malcolm]

The precept says nothing about "alcohol is a poison", or "alcohol is inherently bad so don't have anything to do with it". There are other teachings that certainly might say things like this, and we should adhere to the teachings which are definitive for us. If one is simply following the fifth precept though, then one just avoids intoxication which causes heedlessness, not much more to it than that from my point of view.

As far as Right Livelihood, IMO there is a certainly a substantial difference between someone who sells alcohol exclusively for a living, and someone who serves it as an incidental part of their job (waiter at a restaurant serving beer and wine, as one example). Also as I mentioned, if one does something like work at a bar, one will likely be put into situations which certainly would test one's Right livelihood - deciding to serve alcoholic regular customers for example.

Just working at a restaurant though? Objecting to that is just overzealous moralizing, from my point of view, not application of Buddhist ethics.

Personally, I am glad that alcohol is sold. Lonchenpa praises alcohol extensively.

[amanitamusc]

The precept says nothing about "alcohol is a poison", or "alcohol is inherently bad so don't have anything to do with it". There are other teachings that certainly might say things like this, and we should adhere to the teachings which are definitive for us. If one is simply following the fifth precept though, then one just avoids intoxication which causes heedlessness, not much more to it than that from my point of view.

As far as Right Livelihood, IMO there is a certainly a substantial difference between someone who sells alcohol exclusively for a living, and someone who serves it as an incidental part of their job (waiter at a restaurant serving beer and wine, as one example). Also as I mentioned, if one does something like work at a bar, one will likely be put into situations which certainly would test one's Right livelihood - deciding to serve alcoholic regular customers for example.

Just working at a restaurant though? Objecting to that is just overzealous moralizing, from my point of view, not application of Buddhist ethics.

Personally, I am glad that alcohol is sold. Lonchenpa praises alcohol extensively.

Could you post a few praises from Longchenpa.

[ford_truckin]

Why would you want others to keep accumulating bad karma by selling alcohol so you can have some for your puja?

Maybe learn how to make some at home if you need it badly. That way you aren't supporting an industry that contributes to many social ills, misery, and death worldwide.

The precept against drinking is the only one of the five precepts that is a prohibition as opposed to a natural nonvirtue. Thus, brewing, selling, and consuming alcohol is not nonvirtuous by nature. The consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to nonvirtuous deeds, but those for whom this is case should refrain from drinking.

Not sure where you're getting your info.

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[ford_truckin]

The precept says nothing about "alcohol is a poison", or "alcohol is inherently bad so don't have anything to do with it". There are other teachings that certainly might say things like this, and we should adhere to the teachings which are definitive for us. If one is simply following the fifth precept though, then one just avoids intoxication which causes heedlessness, not much more to it than that from my point of view.

As far as Right Livelihood, IMO there is a certainly a substantial difference between someone who sells alcohol exclusively for a living, and someone who serves it as an incidental part of their job (waiter at a restaurant serving beer and wine, as one example). Also as I mentioned, if one does something like work at a bar, one will likely be put into situations which certainly would test one's Right livelihood - deciding to serve alcoholic regular customers for example.

Just working at a restaurant though? Objecting to that is just overzealous moralizing, from my point of view, not application of Buddhist ethics.

If the person is earning tips from bringing alcohol drinks to their customers then it is wrong livelihood. Doesn't matter if they are working at a restaurant or bar. I don't believe in a watered down version of Buddhist ethics.

And alcohol literally is poison. This is scientific fact.
https://lifehacker.com/5684996/what-alc ... n-and-body

[Malcolm]

Why would you want others to keep accumulating bad karma by selling alcohol so you can have some for your puja?

Maybe learn how to make some at home if you need it badly. That way you aren't supporting an industry that contributes to many social ills, misery, and death worldwide.

The precept against drinking is the only one of the five precepts that is a prohibition as opposed to a natural nonvirtue. Thus, brewing, selling, and consuming alcohol is not nonvirtuous by nature. The consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to nonvirtuous deeds, but those for whom this is case should refrain from drinking.

Not sure where you're getting your info.

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Please tell me which of the ten nonvirtuous actions of body, voice and mind include the prohibition against alcohol? The point is that precept against intoxication is a prohibition, not a natural nonvirtue. The other four precepts—taking life, taking what is not given, lying, and sexual misconduct—are natural nonvirtues. Not only this, we can understand that the precept against drinking alcohol for monks is classed as the same kind of offense as pulling leaves off of trees. Not that serious.

Further, in Mahāyāna, drinking alcohol is permitted for the purposes of conviviality with common people, and in unsurpassed secret mantra, it is permitted, period.

[Johnny Dangerous]

The precept says nothing about "alcohol is a poison", or "alcohol is inherently bad so don't have anything to do with it". There are other teachings that certainly might say things like this, and we should adhere to the teachings which are definitive for us. If one is simply following the fifth precept though, then one just avoids intoxication which causes heedlessness, not much more to it than that from my point of view.

As far as Right Livelihood, IMO there is a certainly a substantial difference between someone who sells alcohol exclusively for a living, and someone who serves it as an incidental part of their job (waiter at a restaurant serving beer and wine, as one example). Also as I mentioned, if one does something like work at a bar, one will likely be put into situations which certainly would test one's Right livelihood - deciding to serve alcoholic regular customers for example.

Just working at a restaurant though? Objecting to that is just overzealous moralizing, from my point of view, not application of Buddhist ethics.

If the person is earning tips from bringing alcohol drinks to their customers then it is wrong livelihood. Doesn't matter if they are working at a restaurant or bar. I don't believe in a watered down version of Buddhist ethics.

And alcohol literally is poison. This is scientific fact.
https://lifehacker.com/5684996/what-alc ... n-and-body

You prefer a Buddhist ethics you just make up based on in your own whims then? We are talking about the Fifth precept, not your opinions on what alcohol is.

I do addiction counseling for a living, I know a little about alcohol. There are many substances which are both poisons and medicines...in fact almost any psychoactive substance occupies both categories historically. The effects of alcohol that are most damaging actually arise from what the brain and physiology does in response under the wrong conditions, in addition how society views and uses them, not from some inherent property of the substance. in fact, *all* drugs mimic things that already exist in our neurochemistry/physiology, they don't create new states.

As far as your body seeing it as "poison"...sure, your body sees chiles that way too, ever tried eating a durian fruit? All kinds of things are like this.

I'm not saying alcohol doesn't damage people who abuse it, as I said, I do this stuff for a living and I know what it can do. But it's not the alcohol, it's the human preponderance to run away from pain, run after pleasure, and to try doing so with a 'quick fix' which is socially condoned combined with physiological factors that make alcohol dangerous.

I'm mystified as to what you think that goofy life hacker article proves, because it isn't anything your're claiming.

[Grigoris]

Not sure where you're getting your info.

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Which is cool if you are a Theravadin monk, since that is the audience towards whom the teaching is directed. But if you are a Vajrayana Ngakpa (lay practitioner), well, it's a little bit different then...

Are you a Theravadin monk?

Do you hold the fifth precept? How strictly? Do you use cough syrup (for example)? Do you eat food that has been doused and/or cooked in alcohol? What about vanilla essence? Do you avoid that too? Sour dough bread and other naturally fermented foods (eg kefir, kimchi, butter milk)?

[Johnny Dangerous]

The "indulged in, developed, & pursued" bit is the most important important takeaway on alcohol from the Sutta quote, but it is being ignored in favor of a protestant claim that we should not sin by imbibing any alcohol, essentially. Buddhist ethical reasoning is based on cause and effect, not the supposedly inherent properties of substances.

There is also no claim anywhere that i'm aware of (including Pali scripture) that the incidental serving of alcoholic beverages with a meal constitutes wrong livelihood, and such a claim is also based on very questionable reasoning.

[pemachophel]

Tulzhug Lingpa, a.k.a. Duddul Rolpai Dorje, a well-known Terton of the mid-20th century and student of both H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, and Chatral Sangay Dorje, wrote a small book on the importance of avoiding alcohol for Buddhist practitioners -- The Youthful Armor for Those Who Want Liberation. The first half of the book is written based on sutric admonitions. However, the second half of the book is a counsel against Tantrikas indulging in alcohol. Here's one paragraph:

"One named Jnana [probably Dudjom Rinpoche] said, 'To use Vajrayana as an excuse to carelessly indulge in meat and alcohol is a sign of being a charlatan.' And also, 'To eat food which is apportioned to a realized practitioner when one does not have that portion of practice is a sign of being a charlatan.'"

And another:

"It is not acceptable to drink alcohol and use Dharma as an excuse. Not even one of the Tantras, instruction texts, or pith instructions allows a person on the gradual path to consume alcohol. So it would be accumulating negative karma based on the Dharma. It is said that this negative action is worse than any other negative action."

[Grigoris]

"One named Jnana [probably Dudjom Rinpoche] said, 'To use Vajrayana as an excuse to carelessly indulge in meat and alcohol is a sign of being a charlatan.' And also, 'To eat food which is apportioned to a realized practitioner when one does not have that portion of practice is a sign of being a charlatan.'"
...
"It is not acceptable to drink alcohol and use Dharma as an excuse. Not even one of the Tantras, instruction texts, or pith instructions allows a person on the gradual path to consume alcohol. So it would be accumulating negative karma based on the Dharma. It is said that this negative action is worse than any other negative action."

Why is it that whichever action is being referenced to in a teaching, it is always considered the gravest and most negative?

But the OP is not talking about use so... They are not even talking about ritual use of alcohol.

Neither of these quotes states that ritual use of alcohol is forbidden.

[Malcolm]

Tulzhug Lingpa, a.k.a. Duddul Rolpai Dorje, a well-known Terton of the mid-20th century and student of both H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, and Chatral Sangay Dorje, wrote a small book on the importance of avoiding alcohol for Buddhist practitioners -- The Youthful Armor for Those Who Want Liberation.

Longchenpa definitely does not agree with this:

Imbibing booze, one is happy; when tasted, one is sated;
internally, the body and mind are supremely blissful;
appearances are blissful and vivid, resembling the realization of dharmatā:
the qualities of good-tasting booze are abundant.

[Grigoris]

Oh... Just to be clear...

I uphold the fifth precept, but still engage in ritual use of alcohol twice a month.