Breaking the law = bad karma?

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KiwiNFLFan
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Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by KiwiNFLFan »

Do you incur bad karma every time you knowingly break one of the laws of the land, even if it isn't harming anybody? What if it is an unjust law?

I'm asking because I'm currently considering a job offer in China, which has an extensive internet firewall. The existence of this firewall is unjust because the Communist party wishes to monitor its citizens' online activities. Would it be considered unethical and generating bad karma to use a VPN or other technology to get around this firewall?

Also, one of the ways I'm looking at getting around the firewall is by having a remote computer (either here in NZ or in the cloud outside of China) and using a remote desktop into it to be able to access blocked sites. If part of the licence agreement to create a virtual computer is that you will not use the computer for illegal purposes, would it be considered unethical from a Buddhist perspective to click 'accept' on the licence anyway? I mean technically I'm not doing anything illegal on the computer in NZ or the US by accessing Facebook or reddit, am I?
shaunc
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by shaunc »

You definitely risk bad karma by breaking the law. It can lead to fines, community service or even being banged up.
If you don't agree with the laws of a particular country don't go there.
Tiago Simões
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Tiago Simões »

No, breaking secular rules doesn't always create bad karma. Remember the story of the chinese monk Xuanzang and how he went to India against the emperor's will?
ford_truckin
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by ford_truckin »

Not necessarily. If you were living in Nazi Germany and hiding Jews in your basement you'd be breaking the law but actually creating good karma.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:23 am Do you incur bad karma every time you knowingly break one of the laws of the land, even if it isn't harming anybody? What if it is an unjust law?
No, it's not always going to be bad karma, for reasons others have given.
KiwiNFLFan wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:23 am I'm asking because I'm currently considering a job offer in China, which has an extensive internet firewall. The existence of this firewall is unjust because the Communist party wishes to monitor its citizens' online activities. Would it be considered unethical and generating bad karma to use a VPN or other technology to get around this firewall?
No, but it's a really bad idea, as shaunc said.
KiwiNFLFan wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:23 am Also, one of the ways I'm looking at getting around the firewall is by having a remote computer (either here in NZ or in the cloud outside of China) and using a remote desktop into it to be able to access blocked sites. If part of the licence agreement to create a virtual computer is that you will not use the computer for illegal purposes, would it be considered unethical from a Buddhist perspective to click 'accept' on the licence anyway? I mean technically I'm not doing anything illegal on the computer in NZ or the US by accessing Facebook or reddit, am I?
Borderline illegality, borderline unethical behaviour - as I suspect you know, since you're sheltering behind "technically".

But again, it's all a really bad idea. Taking a job implies acceptance of the normal conditions of that job, which include abiding by the laws of the country you will be living in. If you don't plan to do that, you're lying to your employer from the beginning - not a good start - as well as risking real-world consequences. :toilet:

:namaste:
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Nemo
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Nemo »

China is becoming a crap place for foreigners. Unless you are teaching English I would think long and hard on that decision. Ten years ago it was completely awesome. I wouldn't bother now.

Everyone uses a VPN in China. NORD vpn is not bad. Life without half the internet sucks. No FB, Google maps, messenger, etc, etc. The Golden Shield Project(what they call the great firewall) is some seriously Orwellian mind frakery. It's going to get worse too. It used to be lawless and fun. Now it is endless arbitrary rules that are only selectively enforced. There is a mass exodus of foreigners starting. It's Thailand or Vietnam if you are young and looking for your fortune now.

https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Everyone goes through the wall. Don't even worry about that.
Don't be scared. The only people who get in trouble for it are using it forr bad things and breaking other laws.
The existence of this firewall is unjust because the Communist party wishes to monitor its citizens' online activities
Allowing the country and society to become immoral and chaotic is also unjust.
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DNS
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by DNS »

Most civil rights leaders had an arrest record, sit-ins, marches, being in "whites only" places, etc. I don't think anyone (normal) would say that earned them any bad karma.
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Jerafreyr
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Jerafreyr »

Politics and Buddhism do not mix. Politics are based on worldly perceptions and not necessarily in accordance with dharmic law. The only protection from karmic forces is the awakened state.
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Wayfarer
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Wayfarer »

Jerafreyr wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:09 am Politics and Buddhism do not mix. Politics are based on worldly perceptions and not necessarily in accordance with dharmic law. The only protection from karmic forces is the awakened state.
In many countries there are Buddhist-oriented political parties, and there's no specific reason why Buddhist principles can't be applied in a democratic system of government.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Jerafreyr
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Jerafreyr »

The Buddha never made a criminal of anyone nor did he force people to be charitable. The problem with government is the coercion behind it. Not to mention the enemies created by those of opposing viewpoints. Policies are only pleasant when they are in your favor in which the reverse is usually the condition.
Simon E.
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Simon E. »

Karma just means 'action'. When people say karma they often mean vipaka..the fruit or result of karma.
And generally speaking the karma that results in negative vipaka depends to a great extent on intention.
So an illegal act done with good intention could be more positive in outcome for the doer than a legal act done with bad intention.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Nemo
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Nemo »

Slavery was legal. Killing Indians and selling their scalps to the government was legal. All wars are legal for the winners. If you think following rules makes you pure you are a fool.
DharmaJunior
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by DharmaJunior »

Come as you are..
humble.student
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by humble.student »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:23 am Do you incur bad karma every time you knowingly break one of the laws of the land, even if it isn't harming anybody? What if it is an unjust law?

I'm asking because I'm currently considering a job offer in China, which has an extensive internet firewall. The existence of this firewall is unjust because the Communist party wishes to monitor its citizens' online activities. Would it be considered unethical and generating bad karma to use a VPN or other technology to get around this firewall?

Also, one of the ways I'm looking at getting around the firewall is by having a remote computer (either here in NZ or in the cloud outside of China) and using a remote desktop into it to be able to access blocked sites. If part of the licence agreement to create a virtual computer is that you will not use the computer for illegal purposes, would it be considered unethical from a Buddhist perspective to click 'accept' on the licence anyway? I mean technically I'm not doing anything illegal on the computer in NZ or the US by accessing Facebook or reddit, am I?
To commit a crime in the first place, you would need to be certain that accessing the sites you mention is in fact illegal in China (they're not), and that utilising the technology you've mentioned is illegal too (not sure about that, but I think it isn't, you'd need to check).

Simply saying "Facebook is banned in China" is not exactly serious now, is it? And if ruminating on the potential karmic consequences of using a VPN (which as one poster commented, is widespread and in fact necessary for many businesses and colleges) is your chief concern right now, then I can guarantee you that you have a seriously rude awakening coming up if and when you decide to go live there.
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tkp67
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by tkp67 »

For me personally I have a simple proof for such times when there is an occasion where there is cognitive dissonance in my mind regarding a conflict of personal teachings and interpretations. Whom does each choice serve? if it is in service to all of humanity or prioritized for a margin of humanity?

If I am following the correct path shouldn't all of humanity, myself included benefit or at least encounter benign reasoning in accord with my capacity to express Buddhahood as a catalyst to my actions? I feel as if Bodhisattva Never Disparaging is an example of going against the "law of the land" to promote the Buddha vehicle.

I accept that all my comments are a very personal take on the teachings and thus the flaws in this thinking are exclusively mine and open for correction.
Simon E.
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by Simon E. »

Most schools of Buddhadharma teach that karma-vipaka results from our intention. So breaking the law with intentions that comply with Dharma might create no karma-vipaka, whereas acts that might be legal might result in vipaka depending on intention.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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seeker242
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Re: Breaking the law = bad karma?

Post by seeker242 »

Not necessarily. Refusing to be drafted and sent off to war, would be against the law. Refusing to go to war certainly would not be making bad karma.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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