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Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:16 pm
by DharmaN00b
Thomas Jefferson once wrote that: "Mankind are disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

It may have been the case that people had cause to gripe in the good old days but nowadays people just piss and moan without having a legitimate grievance, which may be seen as lacking gratitude. I think it has a little bit to do with our biology (we adjust up and down but stay permanently dissatisfied, hence the complaining).

Some people just have to let the world know they're upset, whether you deem it worthy to consideration or no. Go see and shrink, go to the pub? Put the world to rights by having a rant? Life is so unfair! Better still get yourself a Dharma toolkit, and stop muttering under your breathe. (note to self) :mrgreen:

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:18 pm
by Simon E.
Ayu wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:07 pm
I don't really umderstand the point in this discussion (as member, not as mod).

There are ten unwholesome deeds defined in Tibetan buddhism as well. Four of them are about speech. One of them is called 'coarse speech'. Defined in sutra and lam rim.
So, in buddhist terms, how can violent speech be not an issue? Especially when it doesn't come from an enlightened being but an ordinary person.
And how should speech be not affecting? I don't understand. Viewed from my experiences, it makes no sense.

If language had no effect we don't need to use it at all.
If we were talking about aggressive language I would agree, but several posters including have pointed out that many groups, including the English working class from which I spring, use swearing (tellingly it is not called ‘cursing’ in the U.K. That is a very different phenomenon which involves invoking harm on another) in a way carries no emotional force necessarily at all.
Swearing is used as an intensifier or for emphasis, or frequently in the U.K. for humour.
It’s simply not seen as a big deal.

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:30 pm
by DharmaN00b
Funny sob story. On my 18th birthday we (myfriends and I) visited a local greasy cafe because we knew there was an arcade machine in there. One of the serving ladies forbade us from using the machine. As we we're leaving I did the F and C word. A few seconds later and this old guy came up and sucker punched me and I pissed myself. He must have thought that I was calling the lady a C word.

Serves me right for not buying a butty!

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:42 pm
by Simon E.
A story the Scots comedian Fred McCauley tells. He was at a Hearts/Rangers match and the man in front objected to a decision made by the referee. The man was made inarticulate by indignation.

“Hey ref!” He shouted.....”f****** boo!”

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:18 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
Ayu wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:07 pm
I don't really umderstand the point in this discussion (as member, not as mod).

There are ten unwholesome deeds defined in Tibetan buddhism as well. Four of them are about speech. One of them is called 'coarse speech'. Defined in sutra and lam rim.
So, in buddhist terms, how can violent speech be not an issue? Especially when it doesn't come from an enlightened being but an ordinary person.
And how should speech be not affecting? I don't understand. Viewed from my experiences, it makes no sense.

If language had no effect we don't need to use it at all.
Some people and cultures don’t care so much about ’foul language’ as Protestant influenced western cultures do. Language being ‘violent’ or abusive is mainly about context, not content. Furthermore, most swearing is not anything approaching "violent", but is often simply people's way of communicating emphasis in cultures where it's considered the norm.

From my perspective the issues are simply concern for others well being and understanding my own motivation. The words themselves, not so important.

When I first got serious about Dharma, I looked at my swearing. What I discovered is that for the most part, it was not anything that effected other people, as I generally adjust my language for the people I'm around. The place where it was most harmful was actually to myself - specifically while driving. I have a strong tendency towards a kind of private road rage, and this is where I swear in a harmful way - mainly because I whip up my own anger by doing it, and it can color my whole day if I'm not careful.

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:12 pm
by Malcolm
Ayu wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:07 pm
I don't really umderstand the point in this discussion (as member, not as mod).

There are ten unwholesome deeds defined in Tibetan buddhism as well. Four of them are about speech. One of them is called 'coarse speech'. Defined in sutra and lam rim.
So, in buddhist terms, how can violent speech be not an issue? Especially when it doesn't come from an enlightened being but an ordinary person.
And how should speech be not affecting? I don't understand. Viewed from my experiences, it makes no sense.

If language had no effect we don't need to use it at all.
Swearing is not necessarily violent. The term rtsub is much more like abusive speech. While swearing can be abusive, it mostly falls under the heading of idle speech. People read about the karmic consequences of speech acts themselves, and then decide now they wish to speak. Polite speech can be far more injurious than crude speech, in fact.

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:14 pm
by Ayu
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:18 pm
Ayu wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:07 pm
I don't really umderstand the point in this discussion (as member, not as mod).

There are ten unwholesome deeds defined in Tibetan buddhism as well. Four of them are about speech. One of them is called 'coarse speech'. Defined in sutra and lam rim.
So, in buddhist terms, how can violent speech be not an issue? Especially when it doesn't come from an enlightened being but an ordinary person.
And how should speech be not affecting? I don't understand. Viewed from my experiences, it makes no sense.

If language had no effect we don't need to use it at all.
Because some people and cultures don’t care so much about’foul language’ as Protestant influenced western cultures do. Language being ‘violent’ or abusive is mainly about context, not content.

From my perspective the issues are simply concern for others well being and understanding my own motivation. The words themselves, not so important.
Well, that's not foreign to me. Were I'm born, in Norhern Germany, people have a quite rough language. It depends -
"Hey, dickface!" could be translated as "Happy to see you, my best friend."
But that's between friends who trust in each other. Amongst foreign people on the internet or on the street it's not funny, not friendly and it can literally spoil your day to be adressed like this.

So, OP's question was how to improve language that is coarse due to anger? Such language CAN hurt people even if it's not intended.
:thinking: I suppose, it's a 3-step process.
- Becoming aware about when and why it happends.
- Don't beat yourself up, but become aware of it.
- Try to let go.

:thumbsup: I'll try that and report later how it works.

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:18 pm
by Ayu
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:12 pm
Ayu wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:07 pm
I don't really umderstand the point in this discussion (as member, not as mod).

There are ten unwholesome deeds defined in Tibetan buddhism as well. Four of them are about speech. One of them is called 'coarse speech'. Defined in sutra and lam rim.
So, in buddhist terms, how can violent speech be not an issue? Especially when it doesn't come from an enlightened being but an ordinary person.
And how should speech be not affecting? I don't understand. Viewed from my experiences, it makes no sense.

If language had no effect we don't need to use it at all.
Swearing is not necessarily violent. The term rtsub is much more like abusive speech. While swearing can be abusive, it mostly falls under the heading of idle speech. People read about the karmic consequences of speech acts themselves, and then decide now they wish to speak. Polite speech can be far more injurious than crude speech, in fact.
I see.
Yes, it's clear. The problem is not about words but about aggression that targets at others. Polite aggression can give heavy smashes into the face as well. Even if it's not intended. A matter of sender and perceiver.

Re: Coarse language

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:16 am
by Ayu
Yesterday night I rediscovered Shantidevas Bodhicharyavatara.
I think, chapter 5 condenses the tool for better mind-controll and it gives a good intellectual background for why and how to deal with the problem. The coarse language is only a superficial expression. But the real issue is the anger that initiates this language and Shantideva explains how poisonous this anger is.
Chapter 5 - Safeguarding with Alertness:
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... -alertness

In this text I found also the explanation on how to use mantra. Not only nice chanting but better use it as an antidode to mindsets I have to become aware about. This means, before I can apply an antidode, I really have to become aware what is going on in my mind exactly. If I'm unaware, the anger is hidden and then I'm surprised when it bursts out.
The text gives more insight about what I was doing wrong in dealing with my own mind.