is a home made statue acceptable?

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Wicked Yeshe
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Wed May 30, 2018 4:15 pm

Two guys who were cool because they didn't quote books is what i make of it.

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Ayu
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Ayu » Thu May 31, 2018 7:54 am

I think, since the question was posed generally in a non-specific forum, it was interesting to discuss it from different views.
Also I do not consider it as unimportant wether it is a beneficial practice to make a statue or not.

So, thanks for the conversation. :hi:
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石正 Marcus
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by 石正 Marcus » Thu May 31, 2018 8:02 am

gingercatni wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:08 pm
Is it ok to put a homemade image on a shrine table is it disrespectful?
It is a fantastic idea! The Lotus Sutra says: "Even if little children at play, use reeds, sticks, or brushes, or even their fingernails, to draw images of Buddha, all such people, gradually gaining merit, and developing their great compassion, have fulfilled the Buddha way."

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Mantrik
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Mantrik » Thu May 31, 2018 8:31 am

Ayu wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 7:54 am
I think, since the question was posed generally in a non-specific forum, it was interesting to discuss it from different views.
Also I do not consider it as unimportant wether it is a beneficial practice to make a statue or not.

So, thanks for the conversation. :hi:
Yes, as I pointed out, the OP is a Theravada practitioner flirting with Pure Land, so all this pontificating about Tibetan proportions is nowhere near as relevant as advice about what is acceptable in the traditions they are actually involved with - which they sadly didn't receive.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Ayu
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Ayu » Thu May 31, 2018 12:05 pm

Well, I learned there are differences in this matter regarding the different traditions. Interesting. I thought this are basics where theravada, pureland, mahayana and vajrayana have to agree, because it is no unusual thing in buddhism generally to make statues, :sage:
But pardon me, finally I'll shut my mouth NOW. :oops:
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Hate is too great a burden to bear.
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Malcolm
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 31, 2018 1:05 pm

Ayu wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:15 pm
So, it depends on which tradition we are talking about.
In Vajrayana, making statues is a wonderful thing. Tsatsa making is even a practice.

And it sounds rather like a joke, if Buddhists have statues everywhere, but those who made them are doomed? I fail to understand the intention of this teaching that forbids making statues. Sounds rather absurd to me. But I can't judge it, because I can't read Chinese.
Yes. making properly formed images is wonderful. That”s why we hire skilled craftsman to make them. Tsatsas are made with molds.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Mantrik » Thu May 31, 2018 5:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:05 pm
Ayu wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:15 pm
So, it depends on which tradition we are talking about.
In Vajrayana, making statues is a wonderful thing. Tsatsa making is even a practice.

And it sounds rather like a joke, if Buddhists have statues everywhere, but those who made them are doomed? I fail to understand the intention of this teaching that forbids making statues. Sounds rather absurd to me. But I can't judge it, because I can't read Chinese.
Yes. making properly formed images is wonderful. That”s why we hire skilled craftsman to make them. Tsatsas are made with molds.
This thread seems to be going round and round. What are 'properly formed images' as defined in Theravada and Pure Land traditions, please? (This is what the OP is practising.)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Malcolm
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 31, 2018 6:18 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:05 pm
Ayu wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:15 pm
So, it depends on which tradition we are talking about.
In Vajrayana, making statues is a wonderful thing. Tsatsa making is even a practice.

And it sounds rather like a joke, if Buddhists have statues everywhere, but those who made them are doomed? I fail to understand the intention of this teaching that forbids making statues. Sounds rather absurd to me. But I can't judge it, because I can't read Chinese.
Yes. making properly formed images is wonderful. That”s why we hire skilled craftsman to make them. Tsatsas are made with molds.
This thread seems to be going round and round. What are 'properly formed images' as defined in Theravada and Pure Land traditions, please? (This is what the OP is practising.)
The Pratibimbamānalakṣaṇa-nāma or Characteristics of the Proportions of Images by the master Ātreya is a text which describes the qualities of properly proportioned images, and the faults and consequences of improperly formed images. For example, one fault described is that poorly formed images result in the destruction of the wealth of a whole region; if an image is inferior in width and height, it will cause famines and invasions of the region, etc.

Therefore, we need to defer to the wisdom of ancient masters on such issues, and not our own artistic whims.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Mantrik » Thu May 31, 2018 6:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:18 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:05 pm


Yes. making properly formed images is wonderful. That”s why we hire skilled craftsman to make them. Tsatsas are made with molds.
This thread seems to be going round and round. What are 'properly formed images' as defined in Theravada and Pure Land traditions, please? (This is what the OP is practising.)
The Pratibimbamānalakṣaṇa-nāma or Characteristics of the Proportions of Images by the master Ātreya is a text which describes the qualities of properly proportioned images, and the faults and consequences of improperly formed images. For example, one fault described is that poorly formed images result in the destruction of the wealth of a whole region; if an image is inferior in width and height, it will cause famines and invasions of the region, etc.

Therefore, we need to defer to the wisdom of ancient masters on such issues, and not our own artistic whims.

M
Excellent. Thank you. I hope the OP picks this up. :)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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liuzg150181
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by liuzg150181 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:18 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:05 pm


Yes. making properly formed images is wonderful. That”s why we hire skilled craftsman to make them. Tsatsas are made with molds.
This thread seems to be going round and round. What are 'properly formed images' as defined in Theravada and Pure Land traditions, please? (This is what the OP is practising.)
The Pratibimbamānalakṣaṇa-nāma or Characteristics of the Proportions of Images by the master Ātreya is a text which describes the qualities of properly proportioned images, and the faults and consequences of improperly formed images. For example, one fault described is that poorly formed images result in the destruction of the wealth of a whole region; if an image is inferior in width and height, it will cause famines and invasions of the region, etc.

Therefore, we need to defer to the wisdom of ancient masters on such issues, and not our own artistic whims.

M
But i notice that different regions uses different proportions for Buddha statues,no? I find that the different is more prominent if one compares, for example, those of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddha statues and Theravadin ones.

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Malcolm
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:48 am

liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:26 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:18 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:14 pm


This thread seems to be going round and round. What are 'properly formed images' as defined in Theravada and Pure Land traditions, please? (This is what the OP is practising.)
The Pratibimbamānalakṣaṇa-nāma or Characteristics of the Proportions of Images by the master Ātreya is a text which describes the qualities of properly proportioned images, and the faults and consequences of improperly formed images. For example, one fault described is that poorly formed images result in the destruction of the wealth of a whole region; if an image is inferior in width and height, it will cause famines and invasions of the region, etc.

Therefore, we need to defer to the wisdom of ancient masters on such issues, and not our own artistic whims.

M
But i notice that different regions uses different proportions for Buddha statues,no? I find that the different is more prominent if one compares, for example, those of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddha statues and Theravadin ones.
Every tradition uses precise measurements.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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liuzg150181
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by liuzg150181 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:51 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:48 am
liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:26 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:18 pm


The Pratibimbamānalakṣaṇa-nāma or Characteristics of the Proportions of Images by the master Ātreya is a text which describes the qualities of properly proportioned images, and the faults and consequences of improperly formed images. For example, one fault described is that poorly formed images result in the destruction of the wealth of a whole region; if an image is inferior in width and height, it will cause famines and invasions of the region, etc.

Therefore, we need to defer to the wisdom of ancient masters on such issues, and not our own artistic whims.

M
But i notice that different regions uses different proportions for Buddha statues,no? I find that the different is more prominent if one compares, for example, those of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddha statues and Theravadin ones.
Every tradition uses precise measurements.
As in same precise measurements,or different tradition(say Tibetan Vajrayana vs Theravada) uses different kind of measurements?

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Malcolm
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:14 am

liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:51 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:48 am
liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:26 am

But i notice that different regions uses different proportions for Buddha statues,no? I find that the different is more prominent if one compares, for example, those of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddha statues and Theravadin ones.
Every tradition uses precise measurements.
As in same precise measurements,or different tradition(say Tibetan Vajrayana vs Theravada) uses different kind of measurements?
They all use the golden mean to determine proportions
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

humble.student
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by humble.student » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:37 pm

To add an anecdote: I have seen the special types of rulers used in this kind of Buddhist craftsmanship in a Buddhist supplies shop in China some years ago. (A monastic supply store rather than a retail outlet, so to speak).

To return to the OP's query, there's also this brief sutra: http://www.fodian.net/world/0692.html

There's also this article: https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/himalay ... uidelines/
See in particular this image (it's been used as a book cover if memory serves):
Image

gingercatni
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by gingercatni » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:52 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:10 pm
Ayu wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:21 pm
The Lamrim teachings say: firstly, Buddha statues cannot be judged by outward appearance. Every statue is worth the due respect.
And secondly, it is a very meritious deed to make a statue or paint a picture of a Buddha or a diety.
It is very demeritorious to make images of the Buddha, etc., that do not correspond to the proper proportions.
As gingercatni is a Theravada Buddhist on a bit of a quest to find if Pure Land would be fruitful, would Tibetan statue proportions, fillings etc. be the only meritorious ones to follow, or are those of other traditions acceptable?

Kwan Yin offers quite a range of statuary considered proper in different traditions.
Hello Mantrik,

Actually I'm a pureland buddhist and have been for many years. Its is true though that I became buddhist via the Theravada school in 2008, however very quickly I realised my practice was going no where and I dabbled a bit in zen before coming to Pureland. I live in Belfast Northern Ireland, there are NO pureland centers here, no one to seek advice so I'm on my own when it comes to acquiring info. With reference to your quest remark, thats true too as is everyone on this forum. :namaste:

DharmaChakra
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by DharmaChakra » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:52 pm

Namaste

Interesting subject. While I agree there is an exact science behind murti and how they are installed, I cant accept in general for householders that there is the superstition of lands being invaded and famine, is there any real exact science and proof of this. The invasion of Tibet, Indian, Sri Lanka and Burma was invaded and the famine of Bengal was because people made murtis not according to exact sciences ? If that logic was used I would find it hard to accept, the whole idea of malific results seems overly superstitious and all about religious power control and ego of so called gurus who want followers and mental control to satsify their ego's demands, sure signs adharma, which would then attract more negative effects than simply getting measurements wrong. Doesnt really make sense that Buddha would somehow bring disasters, wars, famine and destruction if you made an image that didnt fit into his measurements.

Then the next idea of buying replica murtis bought and sold on ebay or amazon over making with ones own hands in the mood of devotion and personal connection, which usually end up as garden or hall furniture. Some use Buddha images to make their bathrooms look more spirtual......

If your an artist why not learn more about the exact science. If you cant afford because sacred relics are just a business for making money maybe try among your Buddhist friends to crowd fund if they are so passionate that you cant make a personal image with devotion for your own private practice. Its the devotional intent that I would assume would have the most purity.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:57 am

Most statue makers I know work in their own home.

Pray that the deity will help you craft the image in the way he/she wants it crafted. Maybe you will go into trance while you work on it or you will see how the deity wants the statue to look in your dreams.
When you are finished making the statue, pick a good day- confirm the day and then when the day comes you can do simple 開光 at home. put a red blindfold on the statue until the proper day. Then on the proper day, after you pray, then dot the eyes. Then after that, the head of the household or the elders burn incense, then the younger, etc
You might also inscribe a mirror with 天,日,月 and 開光 on the bottom. Then hold the mirror so it reflects the light of heaven onto the deity.

About the proportions take a look at this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=19325

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Mantrik
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:07 am

gingercatni wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:52 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:10 pm


It is very demeritorious to make images of the Buddha, etc., that do not correspond to the proper proportions.
As gingercatni is a Theravada Buddhist on a bit of a quest to find if Pure Land would be fruitful, would Tibetan statue proportions, fillings etc. be the only meritorious ones to follow, or are those of other traditions acceptable?

Kwan Yin offers quite a range of statuary considered proper in different traditions.
Hello Mantrik,

Actually I'm a pureland buddhist and have been for many years. Its is true though that I became buddhist via the Theravada school in 2008, however very quickly I realised my practice was going no where and I dabbled a bit in zen before coming to Pureland. I live in Belfast Northern Ireland, there are NO pureland centers here, no one to seek advice so I'm on my own when it comes to acquiring info. With reference to your quest remark, thats true too as is everyone on this forum. :namaste:
Good luck. :)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

kausalya
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Re: is a home made statue acceptable?

Post by kausalya » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:27 pm

Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand wrote:Because you have taken refuge in Buddha, then, as Nāgārjuna’s Letter tells us: “No matter how a sugata’s image is constructed, even of wood, the wise make offerings.” In other words, a Buddha image may, for example, be badly made or of poor materials, or there may be many fragments of Buddha images in a wayside shrine, but you must still have the attitude that these images are real buddhas.
 
We have greater faith in images made of brass, gold, or Indian bronze; we put such images in the middle of temples. We have little faith in images made of clay and the like, or in damaged ones; we put them by boundary fences [made of dung in Tibet] and later take them to some wayside shrine. But the lamas of the past said that carrying such images out of one’s house is like carrying one’s merits outside. Also, it is a sign that your faith and respect for the Three Jewels is rotten to the core if you take the brocade border off paintings and store the central canvas rolled up when they get old.
Just do your best, and let the quality of the image be dictated by the depth of your faith. Nothing else matters. You will know when you've reached the limit of your abilities.

Don't be discouraged by others: it's just noise.

As an aside, I once complained about my inability to do full-length prostrations, and my teacher said something to the effect of, "you bow deeply enough in your mind."
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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