Does matter exist without consciousness?

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pael
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Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby pael » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:03 pm

Does matter exist without consciousness? Does matter need a conscious observer for it to exist?
Without consciousness does anything exist? Does karma create matter? Does matter arise from karma?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Queequeg
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby Queequeg » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:24 pm

Matter is a distinct skandha from conciousness... so I suppose there is an argument to be made that matter can "exist" without consciousness...

But... consciousness "exists" so its hard to fathom matter "existing" without consciousness...

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

"When a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?"

Things that make you go, "hmmm."

Relevant?

https://futurism.com/could-universe-conscious/
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Minobu
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby Minobu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:22 pm

pael wrote:Does matter exist without consciousness? Does matter need a conscious observer for it to exist?
Without consciousness does anything exist? Does karma create matter? Does matter arise from karma?

Some random thoughts ...

they say that on a certain level everything is like thought, concerning matter.


Jai Guru Dev said everything is a boundless awareness of possibilities...

A rinpoche once taught us that it is all karma...it was karma that creates matter..The gods and Buddhas make it beautiful for sentient beings..he said they were like the creators...without them ,he said, it would all be noxious fumes and something like lava and volcanoes and harshness everywhere...
so i guess karma creates it and the gods and Buddhas make it beautiful for us to dwell in and learn the Dharma.

I think there are levels to consciousness and awareness...and i think they are one and the same..

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Matt J
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby Matt J » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:23 pm

How would you ever know?
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

http://nondualism.org/

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odysseus
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby odysseus » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:24 pm

Matter exists, like the mind exists. One cannot have the one without the other. It is foolish to deny the existence of matter.
Everyone can reach Nirvana, but sadly not everyone does. But they know how happy a state it is.

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Tolya M
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby Tolya M » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:59 am

pael wrote:Does matter exist without consciousness? Does matter need a conscious observer for it to exist?
Without consciousness does anything exist? Does karma create matter? Does matter arise from karma?


Only in asanna sattva plane rupa exist apart from consiousness and consiousness apart from rupa in arupa loka brahmas according to some schools. But there are many of those who maintain subtle thought and subtle rupa in these planes. The latter statement looks more plausible.

Tolya M
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby Tolya M » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:17 pm

pael wrote:Does matter need a conscious observer for it to exist?


Universe in buddhism is a part of being's vision. Besides them, there is no any universe. Just like you never knew anything bypassing your consciousness.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:14 am

Let's define some terms.
Strictly speaking, to "exist" in the Buddhist sense means to possess an inherent, indivisible quality. That means that something must occur regardless of its relationship to anything else, and that it cannot be broken down into various components which do not also fully express that existence.

There is obviously plenty that occurs in the universe without there being any known awareness of it. Your body can have a disease and nobody, not even you or your doctor knows about it. So, "occur" is often a more accurate term than "exist".

Is there anything which, by the Buddhist definition, can be said to exist? Yes, space exists. It may or may not be filled with matter, but no matter how you divide it, it is still space. Space is not made up of anything other than space. There is nothing inherent in a table or in any part of a table that contains "tableness" but every bit of space is an expression of space, of "spaceness".

Now, the nature of space, and its relation to time and so forth as an argument of physics is another issue.

When Buddhists assert that nothing exists outside of consciousness, or aside from consciousness, this doesn't mean that there is nothing that isn't known, or that, say, a planet isn't physically in orbit somewhere until the second it's discovered, as though our thoughts conjure it into existence.

What this assertion refers to can be understood in different ways. In terms of ordinary day to day living, it means that we only experience the habitual way of looking at things, that, for instance, if its a rainy day, we impute value to that and say it's bad weather or it's good weather or whatever. We can even take this a step further and look at it in terms of physiology: our brains are trapped forever in dark little calcium boxes we call our skulls, and every moment of our "reality" is nothing more than an interpretation of electrical impulses triggered by outside stimuli coming into contact with our sense organs. From this, one might argue that we never ever really experience reality directly, and that these is no "we" to experience it.

At the same time, there is truth to the assertion that the realms we experience, as humans or as animals or whatever, are totally the projections of our own minds, expressed as the ripening of karma, meaning an infinite web of interconnected causes and effects. There really is no inner and outer world, even though we experience such, an outer world of things that happen, and an inner world of thinking about things that happen. But it's all one world, just as we are part of the universe, eve though we experience the universe as "out there" when we look at the stars at night.

More importantly, perhaps, is the actual practice of regarding the universe as a projection of mind, as they say, to see everything as a dream, as this practice really does reveal the illusory nature of what we experience as real. There is a lot more of our imaginations at work than we realize.
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The Artis Magistra
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Re: Does matter exist without consciousness?

Postby The Artis Magistra » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:55 am

pael wrote:Does matter exist without consciousness? Does matter need a conscious observer for it to exist?
Without consciousness does anything exist? Does karma create matter? Does matter arise from karma?


Wow, great question.

What we know or refer to as "matter" can not be established as having any existence except in our experience. Our experience is like a flat screen of perception inclusive of whatever we experience in that moment, so there exists this idea of "matter", but all we experience is information which is whatever at all we experience any moment "stuff", inclusive of all distinctions we might typically make, like emotions or memories or whatever else.

The existence of matter is the domain or interest of physicists but in the Buddhism I am familiar with the focus is largely on ethics more so than specific systems or models of the Universe devoid of ethics or things pertaining to the various aspects of the ethical Dharma and its consequences or results.


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