DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

If you're new to the forum or new to Buddhism, this is the best place for your questions. Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
User avatar
Harimoo
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:57 pm

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Harimoo » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:23 pm

When we read records of foreign merchants' journey in Tibet in the end of the XIXth and beginnings of le XXth century, we see that they were horrified by what they witnessed. For example, a kashimiri travaller wrote in his diary that there were human skins that were hanging in Sakya Monastery hall.
An Afghanese (!) merchant told that Tibet was the land where you can witness the worst tortures (he said : "like in the ancient times") that has disappeared in India.
In villages, women suspected of adultery had their nose cut off (you could see noseless women in the Streets).
(Marc Gaborieau made translations in french, I don't know if they exist in english).
I am not sure but I think that at times, it was the religious authorities that ordonned death penalties.


User avatar
Konchog1
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Konchog1 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:39 pm
In any case, the five precepts are not a part of the 4NT, and as far as right livelihood goes...I think you are being a tad idealistic.
The Noble Eightfold Path is the fourth Noble Truth. Right Speech means the fourth precept. Right Action means the first three.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
And what is right action? Abstaining from killing, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual misconduct. This is called right action.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

diamind
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by diamind » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 pm

Tibet's history is a blood bath no doubt. But it's across all humanity. People will always, kill, rape and steal and rejoice about. Theres nothing to fix it. So much pride for nothing, as a collective we are infinity worse then any lice and ticks.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 15180
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 pm

diamind wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 pm
Tibet's history is a blood bath no doubt. But it's across all humanity. People will always, kill, rape and steal and rejoice about. Theres nothing to fix it. So much pride for nothing, as a collective we are infinity worse then any lice and ticks.
There is something to fix it: realisation of Dharma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5744
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am
kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
While this may be true, it is also completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
So what exactly was the point you thought you were making?
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am
Ethnic TB's do not necessarily have much familiarity with the Eightfold Path.

Kirt
And ethnic Christians (WTF?) don't have much familiarity with the 10 commandments and the seven deadly sins, but they don't need to since most of it is codified in law. You don't need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" is the 5th (!) commandment in order to know that murder is not acceptable, or "Thou shalt not covet"is the 10th commandment to know that stealing is not okay.
There's more than one Christian cultural context, but people raised in the United States are inundated with judgment. They are somewhat familiar with the ten commandments and much less familiar with the seven deadly sins (these are irrelevant in the US). The average America has at best a superficial knowledge of Christianity and is usually unfamiliar with Christ's teachings esp. wrt forgiveness. They tend to prefer an illegitimate and superficial interpretation of the Mosaic Law to Christianity. American's love murder, they love murder. That's why many murder and they also have capital punishment. They also love to covet (covetousness is much more than just stealing) - that's why they sell their life in the pursuit of pleasure. Many also find stealing acceptable, as long as they don't get caught. American's tend to find the practice of Jesus's teachings to be nearly impossible and thus rely almost exclusively on a simplistic reliance on cheap and meaningless forgiveness for oneself but are often ruthlessly judgemental concerning others.

A relatively small percentage of Christians in the US are *NOT* like this.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5744
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:22 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 pm
diamind wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 pm
Tibet's history is a blood bath no doubt. But it's across all humanity. People will always, kill, rape and steal and rejoice about. Theres nothing to fix it. So much pride for nothing, as a collective we are infinity worse then any lice and ticks.
There is something to fix it: realisation of Dharma.
:twothumbsup:

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5744
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:25 pm

Harimoo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:23 pm
When we read records of foreign merchants' journey in Tibet in the end of the XIXth and beginnings of le XXth century, we see that they were horrified by what they witnessed. For example, a kashimiri travaller wrote in his diary that there were human skins that were hanging in Sakya Monastery hall.
An Afghanese (!) merchant told that Tibet was the land where you can witness the worst tortures (he said : "like in the ancient times") that has disappeared in India.
In villages, women suspected of adultery had their nose cut off (you could see noseless women in the Streets).
(Marc Gaborieau made translations in french, I don't know if they exist in english).
In what text?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

diamind
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by diamind » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:48 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 pm
diamind wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 pm
Tibet's history is a blood bath no doubt. But it's across all humanity. People will always, kill, rape and steal and rejoice about. Theres nothing to fix it. So much pride for nothing, as a collective we are infinity worse then any lice and ticks.
There is something to fix it: realisation of Dharma.
That not exactly true. Dharma works great for some individuals but not as a collective. Just go spend sometime at any Dharma centre or monastery to see all the five poisons in full swing. Humans are neurotic selfish creatures even the ones brainwashed with Dharma since birth. I think everyone holds onto a sense of pride for being human, but the real truth is we are embarrassing and pathetic.

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by PuerAzaelis » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:20 am

kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:21 pm
... ruthlessly judgemental concerning others.
Sometimes the search for irony in my little mandala takes longer than usual.
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

User avatar
TharpaChodron
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:58 am

kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:21 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am
kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
While this may be true, it is also completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
So what exactly was the point you thought you were making?
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am
Ethnic TB's do not necessarily have much familiarity with the Eightfold Path.

Kirt
And ethnic Christians (WTF?) don't have much familiarity with the 10 commandments and the seven deadly sins, but they don't need to since most of it is codified in law. You don't need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" is the 5th (!) commandment in order to know that murder is not acceptable, or "Thou shalt not covet"is the 10th commandment to know that stealing is not okay.
There's more than one Christian cultural context, but people raised in the United States are inundated with judgment. They are somewhat familiar with the ten commandments and much less familiar with the seven deadly sins (these are irrelevant in the US). The average America has at best a superficial knowledge of Christianity and is usually unfamiliar with Christ's teachings esp. wrt forgiveness. They tend to prefer an illegitimate and superficial interpretation of the Mosaic Law to Christianity. American's love murder, they love murder. That's why many murder and they also have capital punishment. They also love to covet (covetousness is much more than just stealing) - that's why they sell their life in the pursuit of pleasure. Many also find stealing acceptable, as long as they don't get caught. American's tend to find the practice of Jesus's teachings to be nearly impossible and thus rely almost exclusively on a simplistic reliance on cheap and meaningless forgiveness for oneself but are often ruthlessly judgemental concerning others.

A relatively small percentage of Christians in the US are *NOT* like this.

Kirt
I know we have different views on this, that said...the US is a country of 250 MILLION or more people. I don't like broad generalizations of any group of people, especially such a large group as hundreds of millions. Americans do not "love" murder. And I know many Christians who are not like what you say they are. The way you describe all Americans and most American Christians is as unfair as painting all Muslims as violent terrorists. "THEY" don't love to covet, "they" don't love murder. Who is really judgmental here?

amanitamusc
Posts: 701
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:20 am

diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:48 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 pm
diamind wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 pm
Tibet's history is a blood bath no doubt. But it's across all humanity. People will always, kill, rape and steal and rejoice about. Theres nothing to fix it. So much pride for nothing, as a collective we are infinity worse then any lice and ticks.
There is something to fix it: realisation of Dharma.
That not exactly true. Dharma works great for some individuals but not as a collective. Just go spend sometime at any Dharma centre or monastery to see all the five poisons in full swing. Humans are neurotic selfish creatures even the ones brainwashed with Dharma since birth. I think everyone holds onto a sense of pride for being human, but the real truth is we are embarrassing and pathetic.
Humans have capacity to practice Dharma,recognize true nature.
Lice and ticks don't have.

tingdzin
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by tingdzin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:20 am

kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:25 pm
Harimoo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:23 pm
When we read records of foreign merchants' journey in Tibet in the end of the XIXth and beginnings of le XXth century, we see that they were horrified by what they witnessed. For example, a kashimiri travaller wrote in his diary that there were human skins that were hanging in Sakya Monastery hall.
An Afghanese (!) merchant told that Tibet was the land where you can witness the worst tortures (he said : "like in the ancient times") that has disappeared in India.
In villages, women suspected of adultery had their nose cut off (you could see noseless women in the Streets).
(Marc Gaborieau made translations in french, I don't know if they exist in english).
In what text?

Kirt
Yes, please, more information, if you have it. I've read all kinds of travellers' accounts of Tibet, and I have never (for example) heard of nose-cutting for adultery. I expect that's b.s., or propaganda. Especially since other accounts, such as Polo's, seem to speak of the relative sexual freedom of Tibetan women. Human skins in protector houses, of course; everybody knows that. Also human leg bone trumpets, drinking vessels from skulls, etc.

They still put people in cangues in both Tibet and China in the early 20th century. Perhaps the disappearnace (relatively) of torture in India had something to do with those damn British imperialists.

User avatar
Harimoo
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:57 pm

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Harimoo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:00 pm

kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:25 pm
Harimoo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:23 pm
When we read records of foreign merchants' journey in Tibet in the end of the XIXth and beginnings of le XXth century, we see that they were horrified by what they witnessed. For example, a kashimiri travaller wrote in his diary that there were human skins that were hanging in Sakya Monastery hall.
An Afghanese (!) merchant told that Tibet was the land where you can witness the worst tortures (he said : "like in the ancient times") that has disappeared in India.
In villages, women suspected of adultery had their nose cut off (you could see noseless women in the Streets).
(Marc Gaborieau made translations in french, I don't know if they exist in english).
In what text?

Kirt
"Récit d'un voyageur musulman au Tibet" (in french, translated from urdu, 1973)
Journey (1882-1883) of a kashmiri merchant between Kathmandu and Lhassa.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25517
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:38 pm

Harimoo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:23 pm

In villages, women suspected of adultery had their nose cut off (you could see noseless women in the Streets).
Probably sufferers of the "Chinese Pox," i.e. syphilis.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

MiphamFan
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:45 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:38 pm
Harimoo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:23 pm

In villages, women suspected of adultery had their nose cut off (you could see noseless women in the Streets).
Probably sufferers of the "Chinese Pox," i.e. syphilis.
STDs are apparently still a common problem in Tibet. I remember when I went to Larung Gar there were a lot of posters up depicting STDs. I guess a lot of pilgrims would engage in promiscuous sex?

tingdzin
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by tingdzin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:38 am

Yeah, I suspect Malcolm is right. Anyway, an Afghan calling the Tibetans out on harsh punishment is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Read about the traditional culture of the Pashtuns sometime. I will, in the meantime, try to read "Voyage" just for general Tibetological interest -- is it still in print?

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5744
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:39 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:38 am
Yeah, I suspect Malcolm is right. Anyway, an Afghan calling the Tibetans out on harsh punishment is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Read about the traditional culture of the Pashtuns sometime. I will, in the meantime, try to read "Voyage" just for general Tibetological interest -- is it still in print?
"Récit d'un voyageur musulman au Tibet" can be found online in pdf.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 15180
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Grigoris » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:17 pm

diamind wrote:
That not exactly true. Dharma works great for some individuals but not as a collective.
Dharma works perfectly at all levels, isms do not.
Just go spend sometime at any Dharma centre or monastery to see all the five poisons in full swing.
Last time I looked Buddhists were also ruled by their ignorance and afflictions, so no surprise there.
Humans are neurotic selfish creatures even the ones brainwashed with Dharma since birth. I think everyone holds onto a sense of pride for being human, but the real truth is we are embarrassing and pathetic.
I do not consider myself embarrassing or pathetic, definitely imperfect though. That is why I try to take Refuge in the Dharma, because it is the solution to my neurotic selfishness.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests