keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

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Artziebetter1
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Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 12:09 pm

keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by Artziebetter1 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:01 pm

So I like to smoke weed and do intoxicants sometimes to cure my depression/anhedonia and I can't follow all the rules of sexual misconduct like right time,right place all the time etc could I still go to the pureland by reciting or must I be 100% free of breaking the precepts to go there?my life would become very stale if I didn't use anything or followed the precepts as they are interpreted by the schools I hold as most authoritative.

I do not kill or harm beings.I do not lie.I just like to have a drink,a percocet or some weed now and then to give my life some happiness since Its impossible otherwise with anhedonia and clinical depression.I literally am always sad and in a state of anxiety without some substance wether benzos,phenibut,alcohol etc I don't know if I can choose between having a stale(or bad) life or going maybe to a pureland wich is not guaranteed just by reciting.and my death could be decades from now or tommorrow so I dont know.sometimes I think is my recitation valid even if i dont keep all 5 precepts meticulously.I also succumb to masturbation and watching pornography and I do believe that is misconduct(I know people will disagree but its my opinion).I can try to stop but its hard.

thoughts?

GrapeLover
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by GrapeLover » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:09 pm

I believe all Pure Land schools accept the Contemplation Sutra, which states you can still be born there even if you “commit many evil deeds” and are a “very stupid man, and neither ashamed nor sorry for all the evil actions that [you have] done”.

The Longer Sukhavati Sutra only excludes those who commit the five worst actions (killing your parents etc)—and even then, that is only from one means of birth (18th vow as opposed to 19th & 20th) and the Contemplation Sutra also states you can be born there despite having committed the five worst actions.

That said, the Longer Sutra does say you should have “many roots of virtue” ideally so I would stick at the practice.

If you follow one of the Japanese schools, they would certainly just say not to worry, say nembutsu and you’ll be born.

mandog
Posts: 183
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Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by mandog » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:45 am

Artziebetter1 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:01 pm
So I like to smoke weed and do intoxicants sometimes to cure my depression/anhedonia and I can't follow all the rules of sexual misconduct like right time,right place all the time etc could I still go to the pureland by reciting or must I be 100% free of breaking the precepts to go there?my life would become very stale if I didn't use anything or followed the precepts as they are interpreted by the schools I hold as most authoritative.

I do not kill or harm beings.I do not lie.I just like to have a drink,a percocet or some weed now and then to give my life some happiness since Its impossible otherwise with anhedonia and clinical depression.I literally am always sad and in a state of anxiety without some substance wether benzos,phenibut,alcohol etc I don't know if I can choose between having a stale(or bad) life or going maybe to a pureland wich is not guaranteed just by reciting.and my death could be decades from now or tommorrow so I dont know.sometimes I think is my recitation valid even if i dont keep all 5 precepts meticulously.I also succumb to masturbation and watching pornography and I do believe that is misconduct(I know people will disagree but its my opinion).I can try to stop but its hard.

thoughts?
IMO, the main thing with sexual misconduct is that nobody should be harmed by sex. I.e., never coerce someone, never cheat on someone or be the person someone is cheating on their partner with, etc. I think the other details of this precept do matter, but the essence of all 5 precepts is to avoid harming sentient beings. Anyhow, I hold this precept, and that is how I practice it. Mistakes can always be purified with various confession sutras.

The precept related to intoxication is different than the other 4. It is not considered inherently negative to consume intoxicants. It is only a problem if said intoxicants cause you to lose your mindfulness and awareness and then to break the other 4 precepts or to commit the 10 non-virtues in general. For many people this is a strong possibility, which is why the precept exists. Don't beat yourself up about not being able to follow rules. The point is to avoid harming sentient beings, and if you can, to even try to benefit them. If you can do this to the best of your ability while cultivating faith in Buddha Amitabha, you are doing fine.

I am coming from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective, other traditions might be different.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:02 am

The later the text, the easier it is to get to the pure land !

Artziebetter1
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Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 12:09 pm

Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by Artziebetter1 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:06 pm

GrapeLover wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:09 pm
I believe all Pure Land schools accept the Contemplation Sutra, which states you can still be born there even if you “commit many evil deeds” and are a “very stupid man, and neither ashamed nor sorry for all the evil actions that [you have] done”.

The Longer Sukhavati Sutra only excludes those who commit the five worst actions (killing your parents etc)—and even then, that is only from one means of birth (18th vow as opposed to 19th & 20th) and the Contemplation Sutra also states you can be born there despite having committed the five worst actions.

That said, the Longer Sutra does say you should have “many roots of virtue” ideally so I would stick at the practice.

If you follow one of the Japanese schools, they would certainly just say not to worry, say nembutsu and you’ll be born.
Thanks for this.I will still try to follow the precepts but sometimes I succumb to intoxicants.thats my only real very bad sin.Though the poster below you says intoxicants are only a problem if they cause you to do bad things.

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Grigoris
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Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:06 pm

Artziebetter1 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:01 pm
So I like to smoke weed and do intoxicants sometimes to cure my depression/anhedonia and I can't follow all the rules of sexual misconduct like right time,right place all the time etc could I still go to the pureland by reciting or must I be 100% free of breaking the precepts to go there?my life would become very stale if I didn't use anything or followed the precepts as they are interpreted by the schools I hold as most authoritative.

I do not kill or harm beings.I do not lie.I just like to have a drink,a percocet or some weed now and then to give my life some happiness since Its impossible otherwise with anhedonia and clinical depression.I literally am always sad and in a state of anxiety without some substance wether benzos,phenibut,alcohol etc I don't know if I can choose between having a stale(or bad) life or going maybe to a pureland wich is not guaranteed just by reciting.and my death could be decades from now or tommorrow so I dont know.sometimes I think is my recitation valid even if i dont keep all 5 precepts meticulously.I also succumb to masturbation and watching pornography and I do believe that is misconduct(I know people will disagree but its my opinion).I can try to stop but its hard.

thoughts?
So let me see if I can understand what you are saying: You don't really want to change any of your unwholesome habits. You want to engage in the Five Worldly Dharmas. You do not want to particularly apply Right Effort (preferring to squander it on running after hedonistic pursuits). You want to use your apparent mental health disorder as an excuse for unwholesome behaviour. Etc...

And yet you want to be reborn in a Pureland?

Now it is true that Amitabha has a crapload of patience and compassion and is willing to "forgive" anything if people ferverently beg him for help, BUT it seems to me that Amitabha is not the problem in this equation.

I bet you can guess who the problem is. I bet you can guess who needs to make the effort. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

mandog
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Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by mandog » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:06 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:01 pm
So I like to smoke weed and do intoxicants sometimes to cure my depression/anhedonia and I can't follow all the rules of sexual misconduct like right time,right place all the time etc could I still go to the pureland by reciting or must I be 100% free of breaking the precepts to go there?my life would become very stale if I didn't use anything or followed the precepts as they are interpreted by the schools I hold as most authoritative.

I do not kill or harm beings.I do not lie.I just like to have a drink,a percocet or some weed now and then to give my life some happiness since Its impossible otherwise with anhedonia and clinical depression.I literally am always sad and in a state of anxiety without some substance wether benzos,phenibut,alcohol etc I don't know if I can choose between having a stale(or bad) life or going maybe to a pureland wich is not guaranteed just by reciting.and my death could be decades from now or tommorrow so I dont know.sometimes I think is my recitation valid even if i dont keep all 5 precepts meticulously.I also succumb to masturbation and watching pornography and I do believe that is misconduct(I know people will disagree but its my opinion).I can try to stop but its hard.

thoughts?
So let me see if I can understand what you are saying: You don't really want to change any of your unwholesome habits. You want to engage in the Five Worldly Dharmas. You do not want to particularly apply Right Effort (preferring to squander it on running after hedonistic pursuits). You want to use your apparent mental health disorder as an excuse for unwholesome behaviour. Etc...

And yet you want to be reborn in a Pureland?

Now it is true that Amitabha has a crapload of patience and compassion and is willing to "forgive" anything if people ferverently beg him for help, BUT it seems to me that Amitabha is not the problem in this equation.

I bet you can guess who the problem is. I bet you can guess who needs to make the effort. ;)
Hi Greg,

There are no "five worldly dharmas". There are the 5 precepts and the 8 worldly dharmas; you are conflating these two. One is a set of vows that lay Buddhists may or may not take partially or fully along with their refuge vows. The second is a description of 4 types of hope and 4 types of fear that bind us to samsara.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:44 pm

thats my only real very bad sin.Though the poster below you says intoxicants are only a problem if they cause you to do bad things.
Really I don’t think any of us know what type of sins we have done through past lives.

Also I’m not sure about that intoxicants are only a problem if they cause you to do bad things.
It’s like ‘I steal, but I don’t lie to get away with it, so it’s ok’

mandog
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by mandog » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:54 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:44 pm
thats my only real very bad sin.Though the poster below you says intoxicants are only a problem if they cause you to do bad things.
Really I don’t think any of us know what type of sins we have done through past lives.

Also I’m not sure about that intoxicants are only a problem if they cause you to do bad things.
It’s like ‘I steal, but I don’t lie to get away with it, so it’s ok’
No it is not the same at all. Stealing, Lying, Sexual Misconduct and Killing are all acts where one is generally harming another sentient being. It is possible to consume intoxicants in a healthy way without harming anyone at all. This is why it is different.

Of course, some people abuse intoxicants and harm themselves. Others, become wild under the influence of intoxicants and harm others.

Steel
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun May 03, 2020 7:14 am

Re: keeping the 5 precepts meticulously is a requirement to go to pureland?

Post by Steel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:58 pm

There's no precept requirements to enter the Pure Land from a Jodo Shin perspective but Shinran says:

"Don't take a liking to poison just because there's an antidote"

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