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heart
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by heart » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:23 pm

Jnana wrote:
heart wrote:You forgot this one http://www.nitartha.org/mahamudra.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The complete text of the The Ocean of Definitive Meaning.
Didn't forget it. It's there.
Now I see, sorry.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Pero » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:24 pm

Silent Bob wrote:Tony Duff and his Padma Karpo Translation Committee have published a number of books of mahamudra source materials: http://www.tibet.dk/pktc/transpaper.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mr Duff is a very capable lotsawa, one of the best. Personally, I find his habit of finding fault with the work of other translators to be intrusive and off-putting, but it may not affect other readers that way and it's only obvious in some of his books.
Hehe I found it educational but I also found myself a little annoyed sometimes. I feel I should add a warning that you can't really trust the number of pages he lists for the books. Not that there aren't that many pages, however the actual text can be only a small percentage of those pages, the rest being his various comments, glossary, a little advertisement for his other works and the Tibetan text. Oh and you'll also have to pay some kind of extra tax and handling. I have to say I was pretty shocked when I bought my first book from him, felt a little cheated actually, but I think the quality is good.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Chaz » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

heart wrote:You forgot this one http://www.nitartha.org/mahamudra.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The complete text of the The Ocean of Definitive Meaning.

/magnus
It should be noted that it's a restricted text. From the Nitartha site:
Important: purchase of the text is restricted to certain persons who have permission from their teachers to read the book, or have met certain mahamudra qualifications. As The Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche says in his Introduction to the text: "All readers should closely heed and respect the restrictions on using this instruction treatise set forth by the author, the ninth Gyalwang Karmapa, and other living lineage masters."
Otherwise, it's my understanding that this is one of the definitive works on the subject.

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Astus
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Astus » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:26 am

Chaz wrote:It should be noted that it's a restricted text.
While at the same time you can get a couple of to the point and in depth explanations without any problem. Strange thinking, perhaps it's a marketing thing to make it look more important and more esoteric.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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heart
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by heart » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:33 pm

Astus wrote:
Chaz wrote:It should be noted that it's a restricted text.
While at the same time you can get a couple of to the point and in depth explanations without any problem. Strange thinking, perhaps it's a marketing thing to make it look more important and more esoteric.
I got the book, some part of it contains remarks that makes it more in to a teachers manual rather than a disciples manual. Such as what the student is supposed to answer to certain questions if they got it and if they didn't get it. Apart from that it cover the same things as his shorter texts. I

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Astus » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:52 pm

heart wrote:I got the book, some part of it contains remarks that makes it more in to a teachers manual rather than a disciples manual. Such as what the student is supposed to answer to certain questions if they got it and if they didn't get it. Apart from that it cover the same things as his shorter texts. I

/magnus
Isn't that supposed to be the part of the pointing out instructions, as a next point after analysing, just like in Wangchuk Dorje's other two manuals? Clarifying the Natural State also has the "correct answers".
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Silent Bob » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:26 pm

Astus wrote:
Chaz wrote:It should be noted that it's a restricted text.
While at the same time you can get a couple of to the point and in depth explanations without any problem. Strange thinking, perhaps it's a marketing thing to make it look more important and more esoteric.
Nitartha isn't exactly pushing the book in the marketplace, considering the prerequisites that have to be met before you can buy it. Thrangu Rinpoche's two volumes of commentary on the Ngeton Gyamtso, "An Ocean of Ultimate Meaning" and "Ocean of Definitive Meaning", from Shambhala and Snow Lion respectively, are unrestricted and as informative or more so than the source text. With these available, there's no reason to lust after the hard-to-get Ngeton Gyamtso, except for the dubious appeal of owning a "double super-secret" text that no-one else can see.

Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by heart » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:34 pm

Astus wrote:
heart wrote:I got the book, some part of it contains remarks that makes it more in to a teachers manual rather than a disciples manual. Such as what the student is supposed to answer to certain questions if they got it and if they didn't get it. Apart from that it cover the same things as his shorter texts. I

/magnus
Isn't that supposed to be the part of the pointing out instructions, as a next point after analysing, just like in Wangchuk Dorje's other two manuals? Clarifying the Natural State also has the "correct answers".
Not really. During the pointing-out instructions there is outlined a number of instructions and questions that the teacher should ask the student and also a number of possible answers and what the further instructions should be for a student answering this or that. Never seen anything similar in any other text.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Astus » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:49 pm

heart wrote:Not really. During the pointing-out instructions there is outlined a number of instructions and questions that the teacher should ask the student and also a number of possible answers and what the further instructions should be for a student answering this or that. Never seen anything similar in any other text.
I see, so it's more elaborated there, just as you said: a teacher's manual.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by conebeckham » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:51 pm

Both Ngedon Gyamtso and Chakchen Dawai Ozer are "manuals," and both do present the sort of "question and answer" method. Ngedon Gyamtso, however, is the more complete of the two in this regard. The aim is to help the teacher facilitate the student's exploration. And, as someone said, "Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's "Clarifying" is more explicit, and "contains the correct answers," so to speak.

Dawai Ozer, besides being such a manual, also contains a great deal of polemic in support of the so-called "Self-Sufficent Single Remedy" that has been a bone of contention.

I second Silent Bob's recommendation of those books by Thrangu Rinpoche--they contain everything a student/practitioner really needs to understand about the path of Mahamudra, if one is not going to be "teaching" it. The two "shorter" works by 9th Karmapa are also very beneficial for anyone who wants to understand the Karma Kagyu presentation of Mahamudra.

The reason some of these texts are restricted is because certain "catch-phrases" or "answers" can be learned, and there is the potential pitfall of a student answering questions by rote, or from a position of "intellect only," and not from experience. Knowing the answers can actually get in the way of finding them out for oneself. Though sometimes not.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Chaz
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Chaz » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:48 pm

conebeckham wrote:Both Ngedon Gyamtso and Chakchen Dawai Ozer are "manuals," and both do present the sort of "question and answer" method. Ngedon Gyamtso, however, is the more complete of the two in this regard. The aim is to help the teacher facilitate the student's exploration. And, as someone said, "Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's "Clarifying" is more explicit, and "contains the correct answers," so to speak.

Dawai Ozer, besides being such a manual, also contains a great deal of polemic in support of the so-called "Self-Sufficent Single Remedy" that has been a bone of contention.

I second Silent Bob's recommendation of those books by Thrangu Rinpoche--they contain everything a student/practitioner really needs to understand about the path of Mahamudra, if one is not going to be "teaching" it. The two "shorter" works by 9th Karmapa are also very beneficial for anyone who wants to understand the Karma Kagyu presentation of Mahamudra.

The reason some of these texts are restricted is because certain "catch-phrases" or "answers" can be learned, and there is the potential pitfall of a student answering questions by rote, or from a position of "intellect only," and not from experience. Knowing the answers can actually get in the way of finding them out for oneself. Though sometimes not.
@conebeckham & @ silentbob: When would you recommend a practitioner read those boks by Thrangu Rinpoche?

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Silent Bob » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:21 pm

Chaz wrote: @conebeckham & @ silentbob: When would you recommend a practitioner read those boks by Thrangu Rinpoche?
For you, my friend, now would be a perfect time.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by conebeckham » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:35 pm

^agreed! :smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Jinzang
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Jinzang » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:51 am

Nitartha isn't exactly pushing the book in the marketplace, considering the prerequisites that have to be met before you can buy it.
After Lama Phurbu Tashi looked at the restrictions he wondered if he could meet them. So I found the original Tibetan on the Dharma Downloads site, printed it out, and gave it to him. So the text is only restricted if you can't read Tibetan.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose

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conebeckham
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by conebeckham » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:33 pm

True, dat.
It's easily found in the original Tibetan.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Sönam » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:27 pm

I would also recommand "Mahamudra and Related Instructions - Core Teachings of The Kagyu Schools" in the collection The Library of Tibetan Classicals (translation Peter Alan Roberts) which is a compilation of texts. It includes :

- A String of Pearls (Gampopa)
- The Unrivales Instructions of Shang Rinpoché (Shönu La)
- The Ultimate Supreme Path of the Mahamudra (Lama Shang)
- A Record of Mahamudra Instructions (Drukchen Pema Karpo)
- Instructions for The Mahamudra Innate Union (Karmapa Rangjung Dorjé)
- Prayer for The Definitive Meaning, the Mahamudra (Karmapa Rangjung Dorjé)
- Oral Transmission of the Supreme Siddhas - A Commentary on the Prayer for the Definitive Meaning (Situ Tenpai Nyinjé)
- The Bright Torch : The Perfect Illumination of the True Meaning of the Mahamudra, the Essence of All the Dharma (Tselé Natsok Rangdröl)
- The Quintessence of Nectar : Instructions for the Practice of the Six Dharmas of Naropa (Shamarpa Chökyi Wangchuk)
- The Single Viewpoint : A Root Text (Sherap Jungné) ... in four parts.
- Light Rays from the Jewel of the Excellent Teaching (Dakpo Tash Namgyal)

The whole collection is a must ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Greg
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Greg » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:55 pm

I'd also like to put a plug in for Pointing Out the Great Way: The Stages of Meditation in Mahamudra by Daniel P. Brown (http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... n=&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

It's academically rigorous yet oriented toward the practitioner, a survey of all of the important texts of the tradition. Really an impressive and very useful piece of work.

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Astus
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Astus » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:24 pm

Greg wrote:I'd also like to put a plug in for Pointing Out the Great Way: The Stages of Meditation in Mahamudra by Daniel P. Brown (http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... n=&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

It's academically rigorous yet oriented toward the practitioner, a survey of all of the important texts of the tradition. Really an impressive and very useful piece of work.
I've pondered on buying it but his relationship with Ken Wilber eventually deterred me.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Greg
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Re: Classic Kagyü Mahāmudrā Texts

Post by Greg » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:40 pm

I know he co-edited a book with Wilber (back in 1986), but I'm not sure how deep the relationship goes. In any case, he doesn't particularly bring any sort of syncretism into the book above, so I don't imagine you'll find it too much of an issue.

Greg
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Greg » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:19 pm

Tracing Back the Radiance is a great book. Unfortunately, however, it is a highly abridged version of the far more comprehensive The Korean Approach to Zen - The Collected Works of Chinul. Sadly, this has been out of print for quite a while. Fortunately, it is on scribd. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/51327858/The- ... -of-Chinul)

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