Teacher & Root Guru

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Grigoris
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:04 am

What are the characteristics of an authentic teacher? In their outward behaviour, they should be moderate and disciplined. They should never entice their students into harmful behaviour or endanger their future development. Through their words and deeds, they should inspire others to more and more extensive ethical behaviour, doing wholesome deeds and avoiding unwholesome deeds. They should have walked the path of Dharma to its completion and through untiring practice have attained all realisations. Their mind should be free of self-interest and filled with boundless loving-kindness and compassion for all beings. Another mark of an authentic master is a complete absence of pride. They have no self-centred or worldly interests, but only desire to bring all beings to spiritual maturity and enable them to free themselves from their conditioning and the resulting suffering.

...

Who is a suitable student? A suitable student should have much loving-kindness and compassion and practice the Dharma with the intention of realising buddhahood for the benefit of all beings. Their ego-centred tendencies should gradually decrease because they are practice a selfless attitude of mind. Trust in and devotion to the Three Jewels and, in particular, should grow in them and their pride and self-will should abate. The student should have a balanced mind, should not be thrown by either praise or blame and should maintain equanimity under all circumstances, not allowing changing events to disturb their equilibrium.
Gendun Rinpoche Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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kajibabu
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by kajibabu » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Karma Lodro Senge wrote:I have met countless teachers and Rinpoches. From HH Dalai Lama and HH 17th Karmapa to you name it. But I NEVER experienced what I felt like the time I first met and sat in front of Thrangu Rinpoche (my root guru). Even before either of us said a single word, I knew right then that he would be my root guru. He is also the one that ordained me.
Karma Lodro,

What a wonderful GURU DEVOTION ... You had earned good merits in the past and earning now as well.....
Babu, Nepal

dechenpa
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by dechenpa » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:23 pm

This idea that the 50 Verses on were written by Aryasura or Ashavagosha is widespread, but it cannot be right. The 1st Century CE is far too early for this text, which quotes the Guhyasamaja root tantra (the second verse, though unattributed, comes from this tantra), and hence must have been written some centuries later. According to Tsarchen Losal Gyamtso, it was written by Bhavideva. Identifying Bhavideva with Ashvagosha is highly dubious given the dates.

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Grigoris
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:18 pm

dechenpa wrote:This idea that the 50 Verses on were written by Aryasura or Ashavagosha is widespread, but it cannot be right. The 1st Century CE is far too early for this text, which quotes the Guhyasamaja root tantra (the second verse, though unattributed, comes from this tantra), and hence must have been written some centuries later. According to Tsarchen Losal Gyamtso, it was written by Bhavideva. Identifying Bhavideva with Ashvagosha is highly dubious given the dates.
You seem to forget that these were initially ORAL traditions, so when they were written down does not necessarily reflect when they were initially expounded and practiced.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

dechenpa
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by dechenpa » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:34 am

Grigoris wrote:You seem to forget that these were initially ORAL traditions, so when they were written down does not necessarily reflect when they were initially expounded and practiced.
Sure, all the tantras were collected and preserved in places such as Oddiyana. Shastras, however, were not part of this.

What about this: Bhavideva became a Buddhist when was defeated in debate at Nalanda. For him to be identified with Ashvagohsa, Nalanda would have to exist several hundred years before it is currently thought to have existed.

Or we could just admit that Bhavideva is not Ashvagosha.

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Grigoris
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:22 am

dechenpa wrote:Sure, all the tantras were collected and preserved in places such as Oddiyana. Shastras, however, were not part of this.

What about this: Bhavideva became a Buddhist when was defeated in debate at Nalanda. For him to be identified with Ashvagohsa, Nalanda would have to exist several hundred years before it is currently thought to have existed.

Or we could just admit that Bhavideva is not Ashvagosha.
There is this excellent tale about Drukpa Kunley and his initial (failed, because he did not have the money to donate) attempted meeting with Je Tsongkhapa and then when he finally gets to meet him Tsongkhapa recognises Kunley's level of realisation and gives him a blessing cord which Kunley ties around his member and parades around Lhasa market with his pecker hanging out telling people how they too could get a blessing cord for 500 gold coins. Now, the two main characters in the story lived about 100 years apart, so...

But does it matter? Is it not the "moral" of the story that counts for much more than it's historical veracity?

When practice lineages are expounded and you hear that so-and-so received the teaching from Vajradhara Buddha via the Vajrayogini do you sit around analysing the material and historical veracity of the account?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

dechenpa
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by dechenpa » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:06 pm

Grigoris wrote: But does it matter? Is it not the "moral" of the story that counts for much more than it's historical veracity?

When practice lineages are expounded and you hear that so-and-so received the teaching from Vajradhara Buddha via the Vajrayogini do you sit around analysing the material and historical veracity of the account?
I get your point, it really depends on the case. Vajradhara is transhistorical so that one is quite easy to accept the point, the moral of the story as you say. What is the moral of saying Bhavideva was Ashvagosa? Even if there was a moral, it remains factually false.

For example, when Thomas Malory made King Arthur and Knights of the round table as medieval knights, everyone enjoys it to this day without actually believing it. Similarly the Bhavideva/Ashvagosa identification is at best a pious fiction, at worst an actual mistake.

Generally speaking the Tibetans (e.g. Taranatha) tried to clear up some of the more egregious historical gaps and errors in Indian Buddhist history. In the West I think we like to take it even further. In that spirit it would be better to drop the highly dubious Bhavideva/Ashvagosa identification as a historical fact.

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Malcolm
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:03 pm

dechenpa wrote: In that spirit it would be better to drop the highly dubious Bhavideva/Ashvagosa identification as a historical fact.
Indeed, it is an attribution error.

There are many such errors and as you note, Tibetans were aware of them and took pains to clean them up. However, being conservative, Tibetans also like to keep things as they are. I heard a famous Tibetan recently at a conference assert that we should keep old translation terms, even if they are inaccurate, because they simply have gained the respect of time and usage. It is too soon for such conservatism in my book.
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