Why samsara exists

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Sherab
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Sherab » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:08 am

arcturus wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:37 pm
Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
Samsara (and nirvana) exists because some form of consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe. Karma is a form of natural law (but not proven scientifically as yet) and therefore not some kind of punishment.

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Sherab
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Sherab » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:31 am

arcturus wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:37 pm
Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
My opinion:
Samsara "exists" because some form of consciousness is fundamental to the universe. Karma is a natural law (not proven scientifically), and therefore not a form of punishment. That said, karma is a result of the activities of consciousness and is therefore not fundamental as well. That in turn implies there is liberation from samsara. It also implies that samsara is not real after all, and by extension, nirvana (full liberation from samsara) is not real as well.

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clyde
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by clyde » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:15 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:31 am
clyde wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:01 am
My nature is great completion.
Jigme Lingpa
Which again begs the question: Is your nature separate to samsaric existence? The same as samsaric existence? Both? Neither?
I don't know. The question/answer isn't important to me.
But I know that we share the same nature.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Grigoris
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:25 am

clyde wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:15 am
But I know that we share the same nature.
No my friend, you don't know this. You have heard that this is the case. You can assume, believe, or hypothesise that it is true, but you don't know it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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clyde
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by clyde » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:35 pm

Please, my friend, there are many things I do not know, but I know this.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by TharpaChodron » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:39 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:25 am
clyde wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:15 am
But I know that we share the same nature.
No my friend, you don't know this. You have heard that this is the case. You can assume, believe, or hypothesise that it is true, but you don't know it.
So, Clyde cannot know that his nature is Buddhanature, which he shares with others? He can only assume, believe and hypothesize that it's the truth? How can he "know" it otherwise? Just curious.

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Grigoris
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:13 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:39 am
So, Clyde cannot know that his nature is Buddhanature, which he shares with others? He can only assume, believe and hypothesize that it's the truth? How can he "know" it otherwise? Just curious.
Let's take this from the top, shall we?

Tathagatagarbha is not a mental object to be known. If it was then it would be impermanent and compounded.

It is not something which is experienced by mind, or sensed.

Even the Shengtongpa, with their True Self, do not define the Tahagatagarbha as a phenomenon, though they do ascribe qualities which arise from it.

One could recognise the (shared) qualities in oneself and others, and from there assume that they arise from something. But even then one would again be reifying Tathagatagarbha.

One can realise Tahagatagarbha, but then when one falls back into dualising mentation (ie if one has not stabilised the realisation) they begin to reify it once again and then assume/hypothesise/believe that it exists in others too. But one has fallen back into dualisation again.

So what is this nature then? Does it have a shape, colour, smell, sound, feel, taste or mental form? So how can it be known? And once you have finished knowing your nature, how can you know the nature of others and distinguish if it is the same or different to yours?

So we are back to assuming, hyptothesising and believing.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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clyde
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by clyde » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:00 pm

Was the following known (realized) or assumed, hypothesized, and believed:

“all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss.”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:10 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:13 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:39 am
So, Clyde cannot know that his nature is Buddhanature, which he shares with others? He can only assume, believe and hypothesize that it's the truth? How can he "know" it otherwise? Just curious.
Let's take this from the top, shall we?

Tathagatagarbha is not a mental object to be known. If it was then it would be impermanent and compounded.

It is not something which is experienced by mind, or sensed.

Even the Shengtongpa, with their True Self, do not define the Tahagatagarbha as a phenomenon, though they do ascribe qualities which arise from it.

One could recognise the (shared) qualities in oneself and others, and from there assume that they arise from something. But even then one would again be reifying Tathagatagarbha.

One can realise Tahagatagarbha but then when one falls back into dualising mentation (ie if one has not stabilised the realisation) they begin to reify it once again and then assume/hypothesise/believe that it exists in others too. But one has fallen back into dualisation again.

So what is this nature then? Does it have a shape, colour, smell, sound, feel, taste or mental form? So how can it be known? And once you have finished knowing your nature, how can you know the nature of others and distinguish if it is the same or different to yours?

So we are back to assuming, hyptothesising and believing.
I thought tathagatagarbha's essence is luminosity and compassion, or intrinsic awareness and emptiness, something like that.

And since it's all pervasive, and not separate from our own nature, I was under the impression we can realize it.

I'm not delving into Cittamatrin, Shentong, Prasangika etc stuff, although I'm interested if it has a lot of bearing on this. It sounds like you believe "knowing" the intangible and ineffable, may be an impossibility and we can only therefore, infer, is that what you mean?

We really can't know if Clyde has some great realization or not. We can only assume, believe and hypothesize he does or doesn't.

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clyde
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by clyde » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:10 am

Clyde has not “some great realization”, but I've had a glimpse.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Grigoris
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:44 am

clyde wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:00 pm
Was the following known (realized) or assumed, hypothesized, and believed:

“all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss.”
By the author, or by you? ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:50 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:10 am
I thought tathagatagarbha's essence is luminosity and compassion, or intrinsic awareness and emptiness, something like that.
These are qualities.
I'm not delving into Cittamatrin, Shentong, Prasangika etc stuff, although I'm interested if it has a lot of bearing on this. It sounds like you believe "knowing" the intangible and ineffable, may be an impossibility and we can only therefore, infer, is that what you mean?
When not "absorbed" in it, yes. We can "know"a mental impression which arose during realisation, but that is not the same thing as realisation. Any more than knowing the taste of a lemon is the same as tasting it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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clyde
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by clyde » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:44 am
clyde wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:00 pm
Was the following known (realized) or assumed, hypothesized, and believed:

“all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss.”
By the author, or by you? ;)
By the author, of course.

Also, do you know or assume, hypothesize, and believe it to be true?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Grigoris
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:06 pm

clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:39 pm
Also, do you know or assume, hypothesize, and believe it to be true?
No, I just have it in my signature so that I can look clever! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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clyde
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by clyde » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:38 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:06 pm
clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:39 pm
Also, do you know or assume, hypothesize, and believe it to be true?
No, I just have it in my signature so that I can look clever! :smile:
It's working :smile:
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Empty Desire
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Empty Desire » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:12 am

Someone asked Shunryu Suzuki: Why is there Suffering?

He answered: No reason.

From a Mahamudra perspective: No Beginning, No End, Just Mind.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:51 pm

I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

Jeff H
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Jeff H » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:00 pm

I heard Alan Wallace, backed up by Dudjom Lingpa*, give what seems to me like a marvelously succinct answer to this question on this podcast. What I quote below begins around 43:00.
[Wallace reading from Vajra Essence by Dudjom Lingpa:]“It is not that conditioned consciousness must vanish into absolute space and primordial consciousness must arise from somewhere else. Instead, know that it just seems that way because of the functions of self-grasping and identylessness; of the pairing of reification and then the absence of reification. Conditioned consciousness is what makes the first moment of knowing emerge in the aspect of the object, just as various images of planets and stars emerge in the ocean. What arises is closely held by conceptual consciousness, it is bound by reification, and you thereby become deluded.”

So if you want to know what is the origin of samsara, how did this all begin, he just told you. It’s not in the past, some 13 billion years ago. It’s every moment. That’s when samsara begins. Because we don’t actually have any history as sentient beings. The notion that we do is an illusion concocted by a deluded mind that reifies time, reifies the self, and then wonders, “What’s my history?” View yourself from the perspective of rigpa and you were never a sentient being. You’re not now a sentient being, and you never will be. So you have no history of being a sentient being or how you first became a sentient being any more than the rope has a history as a snake; tell me, when did you first become a snake?

Last sentence; I’ll read that again. “What arises is closely held by conceptual consciousness, it is bound by reification, and you thereby become deluded.” Knowledge of the reasons for this brings you to primordial consciousness.
*And similarly, as I just read, ChNN elaborates on this point on pages 89-90 of Song of the Vajra
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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