Why samsara exists

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arcturus
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Why samsara exists

Post by arcturus » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:37 pm

Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
Last edited by Ayu on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo in title.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:04 pm

Samsara - Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live — the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?" Instead of a place, it's a process: the tendency to keep creating worlds and then moving into them. As one world falls apart, you create another one and go there. At the same time, you bump into other people who are creating their own worlds, too.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... msara.html
It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.

MN 63 - Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa[1] forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"

"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.

"And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

SN 56.31 - Simsapa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:namaste:
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CedarTree
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by CedarTree » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:03 pm

arcturus wrote:Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
Think more "cause & effect". Buddhism's central subject is Dependent Origination.

Practice, Practice, Practice

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jkarlins
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by jkarlins » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:21 pm

no

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:46 am

arcturus wrote:Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
because whe love logic, and so we struggle to sustain the "i" idea, and then cause and effect system sustains everything
that is as far as i can see

you question question is very very interesting

arcturus
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by arcturus » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:58 am

Ok, I have to say, that your answers did not satisfied me (sorry, I am dopey), but I know that it is a difficult question and I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EFFORT!!!
Thank you very much guys!!!! :)

arcturus
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by arcturus » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:06 am

I know that we are in samsara from time without beginning.
May be the better question should be - what happened, that we appeared in samsara??
Thank for your answers guys, I know I have difficult questions, but I can find answers nowhere in books :)

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Dan74
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:43 pm

Why do you have two eyes and a nose? And no wings?? And are locked in time going forward? Why are you not a king or a queen or fabulously rich, etc etc?

There is a theory that each of us is in the circumstances we are because it is exactly the challenge we need. But what of a kid dying of a cruel disease?? What of a baby born to a life of torment? \

To answer your question: I don't know. Karma. I don't know. Just do the best with what you've got and quit wondering about things that are useless, maybe?

_/|\_

Jeff H
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Jeff H » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:04 pm

Two Budhist principles that might help:

1. Samsara arises from a natural law of cause and effect. It’s the karmic result of our karmic causes. Karma is not a moral code or legal system. It simply means that if you act unharmoniously you will experience unharmonious results. For example: If the legal speed limit is fifty and you drive at 60, you may get caught and you may suffer legal consequences; but if the natural law of physics says 50 is the upper limit on a curve and you do 60, you will go off the road. No punishment, no judgment, just cause and effect.

2. Nothing happens without a cause. That means there has never been a beginning. We tend to assume there must have been a first moment, but Buddhism says there can never ever be a causeless cause. So samsara is not a descent from a pristine beginning, it is just the way we experience our lives because we’ve always let our ignorance inform our actions.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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jkarlins
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by jkarlins » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:16 pm

arcturus wrote:Ok, I have to say, that your answers did not satisfied me (sorry, I am dopey), but I know that it is a difficult question and I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EFFORT!!!
Thank you very much guys!!!! :)
you are welcome! and you are not dopey. It's a tough one.

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Vasana
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by Vasana » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:07 pm

Dalai Lama's book 'The universe in a single atom' might be worth a mention here. In general, Buddhist cosmology says the universe is without beginning and different cosmic aeons stir due to the power or latent karmic traces. These are naturally both very difficult concepts to wrap our heads around.

Dalai Lama in The universe in a single atom' ;


'From the Buddhist perspective, the idea that there is a single definite beginning is highly problematic. If there were such an absolute beginning, logically speaking, this leaves only two options. One is theism, which proposes that the universe is created by an intelligence that is totally transcendent, and therefore outside the laws of cause and effect. The second option is that the universe came into being from no cause at all. Buddhism rejects both these options. If the universe is created by a prior intelligence, the questions of the ontological status of such an intelligence and what kind of reality it is remain.'


'According to the early scriptures, the Buddha himself never directly answered questions put to him about the origin of the universe. In a famous simile, the Buddha referred to the person who asks such questions as a man wounded by a poisoned arrow. Instead of letting the surgeon pull the arrow out, the injured man insists first on discovering the caste, name, and clan of the man who shot the arrow; whether he is dark, brown, or fair; whether he lives in a village, town, or city; whether the bow used was a longbow or a crossbow; whether the bowstring was fiber, reed, hemp, sinew, or bark; whether the arrow shaft was of wild or cultivated wood; and so forth. Interpretations of the meaning of the Buddha’s refusal to answer these questions directly vary. '

'My own view is that the entire process of the unfolding of a universe system is a matter of the natural law of causality. I envision karma coming into the picture at two points. When the universe has evolved to a stage where it can support the life of sentient beings, its fate becomes entangled with the karma of the beings who will inhabit it. More difficult perhaps is the first intervention of karma, which is effectively the maturation of the karmic potential of the sentient beings who will occupy that universe, which sets in motion its coming into being.

The ability to discern exactly where karma intersects with the natural law of causation is traditionally said to lie only within the Buddha’s omniscient mind. The problem is how to reconcile two strands of explanation-first, that any universe system and the beings within it arise from karma, and second, that there is a natural process of cause and effect, which simply unfolds. The early Buddhist texts suggest that matter on the one hand and consciousness on the other relate according to their own process of cause and effect, which gives rise to new sets of functions and properties in both cases. On the basis of understanding their nature, causal relations, and functions, one can then derive inferences-for both matter and consciousness- that give rise to knowledge. These stages were codified as “four principles”-the principle of nature, the principle of dependence, the principle of function, and the principle of evidence.'


'Even with all these profound scientific theories of the origin of the universe, I am left with questions, serious ones: What existed before the big bang? Where did the big bang come from? What caused it? Why has our planet evolved to support life? What is the relationship between the cosmos and the beings that have evolved within it? Scientists may dismiss these questions as nonsensical, or they may acknowledge their importance but deny that they belong to the domain of scientific inquiry. However, both these approaches will have the consequence of acknowledging definite limits to our scientific knowledge of the origin of our cosmos. I am not subject to the professional or ideological constraints of a radically materialistic worldview.

And in Buddhism the universe is seen as infinite and beginningless, so I am quite happy to venture beyond the big bang and speculate about possible states of affairs before it.'
"The changing cycle of joy and sorrow, like the changing seasons –
As a time of suffering will surely come around to me,
May I truly practice the sublime teachings."
- Dudjom Rinpoche

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:22 pm

Agañña Sutta (DN 27) - A Book of Genesis

A sutta which gives an account of the development of the world, and can be regarded as a Genesis from the Buddhist point of view. The sutta criticizes the pretensions of superiority of the Brahmins, indicating that the position of each depends on the actions practiced.

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn27



15. Anamatagga-samyutta — The unimaginable beginnings of samsara

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn15



Assu Sutta: Tears

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans."

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



:anjali:
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:29 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Assu Sutta: Tears

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"




:anjali:
This is amazing, most amazing my friend, in deed.
The Tathagata shows everything with excellence
His teaching is an endless surprise

:)

Tolya M
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by Tolya M » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:13 pm

arcturus wrote:Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
The war with soldiers and victims exists only because people are at war. If they did not fight, then there would be no war. :shrug:

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:42 pm

arcturus wrote:Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
The word samsara is Sanskrit, and means cycle of contaminated rebirth, or cycle of impure life. The cycle of contaminated rebirth refers to repeatedly taking a contaminated body and mind, which are also called ‘contaminated aggregates’. Normally, whenever our body is sick we think ‘I am sick’, and whenever our mind is unhappy we think ‘I am unhappy’. This clearly indicates that we believe our body and mind are our self. This belief is ignorance because our body and mind are not our self; they are the possessions of our self, as indicated by our saying ‘My body, my mind’. Because of this ignorance believing that our body and mind are our self we develop various kinds of mistaken appearance through which we experience various kinds of suffering and problems as hallucinations, throughout this life and in life after life without end.

muni
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by muni » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:47 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Assu Sutta: Tears

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"




:anjali:
This is amazing, most amazing my friend, in deed.
The Tathagata shows everything with excellence
His teaching is an endless surprise

:)
Yes. Amazing bell. Many thanks Lucas.

:anjali:
Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!

Having meditated on love and compassion, I forgot the difference between myself and others. Yogi Milarepa.

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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by KathyLauren » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:24 pm

arcturus wrote:I know that we are in samsara from time without beginning.
May be the better question should be - what happened, that we appeared in samsara??
Thank for your answers guys, I know I have difficult questions, but I can find answers nowhere in books :)
What happened? Nothing. The appearance of samsara is a manifestation of our ignorance of the true nature of reality. Since we have not yet learned the true nature of reality, samsara is how we experience the world. Once we learn it, we will no longer experience it as samsara.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Anonymous X
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by Anonymous X » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:35 am

arcturus wrote:Hello,
can anyone explain me, why samsara exists? Why we are unperfect and imprisoned in samsara? Is it some kind of punishment? I know that we are in samsara because of our karma, but why samsaric system generally exists?
Thank you, Arcturus
This simple description of samsara and its cause:
At first, that is, before any notion of “mine” can arise, there is a clinging to “I,” to the self that is assumed to exist. All that is considered to pertain to this self—one’s eyes, for example—is in turn assumed to exist truly, and attachment to it is consequently engendered. It is due to this that beings wander helplessly in samsara,

Chandrakirti's <i>Madhyamakavatara with Commentary by Ju Mipham

This is called 'innate ignorance'. It is not your fault, and descriptions like 'unperfect', and 'Imprisoned' are dualistic and judgemental, not helpful in sorting all of this. You were never shown this error as you grew up and learned about yourself and the world around you, thinking that you were separate from it. The Middle Way is a deep contemplation of this ignorance and its resultant illusions.

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Minobu
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Re: Why sansara exists

Post by Minobu » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:11 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
arcturus wrote:I know that we are in samsara from time without beginning.
May be the better question should be - what happened, that we appeared in samsara??
Thank for your answers guys, I know I have difficult questions, but I can find answers nowhere in books :)
Once we learn it, we will no longer experience it as samsara.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
yeah until you get a huge illness or some other problem..
it's not about some arcane view of your life ...paint your walls with flowers and smell the roses...

it's about blowing out your karma..samsara is a world of desire..thus creating karma, thus creating more samsara if you will.
attain buddhahood and you no longer are sucked into samsara and if you want to do some slumming down here...it's not the same as a common mortal wandering through it.

arcturus
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Re: Why samsara exists

Post by arcturus » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:09 pm

Thank you very much, your answers are very inspiring! :good:

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