Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

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doublerepukken
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Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by doublerepukken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:54 pm

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I've been pretty preoccupied with it.

Once AI reaches a certain stage, it, theoretically, will become indistinguishable from organic human sentience assuming we get there. I think that they (AI) would therefore have Buddha-nature, but was curious if anyone thinks they wouldn't and why

Namu Amida Butsu
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Namu Amida Butsu


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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by doublerepukken » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:28 am

Thanks monlam will delete for redundancy
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am

Most of our intelligence is already artificial anyway.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:27 am

Good luck with writing the specification. :smile:
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 pm

Worth nothing that buddha-nature predates you in this life as this person. It isn't something that comes into existence or emerges. Sentient beings take birth in different realms because of their karma, not because of the complexity or not of the particular organism.

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Vasana » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:06 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 pm
Worth nothing that buddha-nature predates you in this life as this person. It isn't something that comes into existence or emerges. Sentient beings take birth in different realms because of their karma, not because of the complexity or not of the particular organism.
:good:

Buddhanature isn't conditioned whereas A.I is conditioned. If A.I had buddha-nature, it would have to possess it before it's most current 'incarnation'/ creation.
"The changing cycle of joy and sorrow, like the changing seasons –
As a time of suffering will surely come around to me,
May I truly practice the sublime teachings."
- Dudjom Rinpoche

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by DGA » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:23 pm

Vasana wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:06 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 pm
Worth nothing that buddha-nature predates you in this life as this person. It isn't something that comes into existence or emerges. Sentient beings take birth in different realms because of their karma, not because of the complexity or not of the particular organism.
:good:

Buddhanature isn't conditioned whereas A.I is conditioned. If A.I had buddha-nature, it would have to possess it before it's most current 'incarnation'/ creation.
A better way to put the question:

Can a sentient being take birth as a machine, and if so, would AI be its citta?

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Admin_PC » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:46 pm

I've done a lot of work in AI, granted it's about 12 years since I did the majority of that work, but I'm not sure that the "theory of mind" behind current work in AI is (or will ever be) fleshed out enough for us to talk about a machine with true consciousness. 2 of the main techniques in AI are expert systems and neural networks. The former is more like a clear set of instructions that have been pre-developed and written in code (if A do B, if C do D, etc). The latter involves classifiers and clustering - using mathematical formulas that classify inputs and automatically adjust various weights for desired outputs. The newest advancements seem to just add abstraction layering, recursion, and "memory" to neural nets. By "theory of mind" I refer to understanding the mind and consciousness well enough to write general formulas that can (when left alone) be able to adequately recreate self awareness (not just "wanting that" but "knowing I want that"). Call me naive or closed-minded, but I have a hard time thinking that all of consciousness can be represented by a group of mathematical formulas. Mimicking it (whether supervised or unsupervised) is one thing, but fully creating it is quite another.
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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:28 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:23 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:06 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 pm
Worth nothing that buddha-nature predates you in this life as this person. It isn't something that comes into existence or emerges. Sentient beings take birth in different realms because of their karma, not because of the complexity or not of the particular organism.
:good:

Buddhanature isn't conditioned whereas A.I is conditioned. If A.I had buddha-nature, it would have to possess it before it's most current 'incarnation'/ creation.
A better way to put the question:

Can a sentient being take birth as a machine, and if so, would AI be its citta?
What do you think, DGA? Which mode of birth would this fall under? Or even which realm?

PC made some very interesting points about the basic nature of AI. I'm in his camp on this one at this point.

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by DGA » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:54 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:28 pm
DGA wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:23 pm
A better way to put the question:

Can a sentient being take birth as a machine, and if so, would AI be its citta?
What do you think, DGA? Which mode of birth would this fall under? Or even which realm?

PC made some very interesting points about the basic nature of AI. I'm in his camp on this one at this point.
I am skeptical, in part because I am largely ignorant of AI (haven't read anything about it since 1997 or so). The points PC makes are sensible and well-informed; it would take some doing to convince me he's on the wrong track.

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:47 pm

Scientists are nowhere near understanding mind, so how are they going to create it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by odysseus » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:08 pm

A machine can never become sentient.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, but let him seek wisdom.

-- Dhammapada

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:48 pm

Spot on, Greg. There also isn't an understanding of realms, including this one.
What I mean is a realm isn't a preexisting place with beings coming in and out like patrons at a bar.
Realms are "created" by the general karma of the beings born there.
Said another way, beings give rise to realms. But the prevailing scientific view is exactly the opposite.

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by boda » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:56 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:47 pm
Scientists are nowhere near understanding mind, so how are they going to create it?
Was the human mind intelligently designed?

AI is interesting from a Buddhist perspective because it may be necessary to design identity, desires, and emotions of some kind into it in order to achieve a general consciousness intelligence. If a powerful general AI can be created without it being conscious that may be a safer option, but then down the road at some point it may achieve consciousness on its own. [cue terminator theme music]

Fortunately there are some good people looking ahead: https://futureoflife.org

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:43 am

boda wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:56 am
Was the human mind intelligently designed?
The human mind was not created.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Dan74 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:00 pm

odysseus wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:08 pm
A machine can never become sentient.
Not sure about 'never' but our understanding of what this entails has a long way to go before that happens.

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:47 pm

Beings take birth, they don't emerge spontaneously when a critical mass of complexity is achieved.
And a being's realm takes birth with it. There isn't an empty stage with this or that pre-existing quality waiting for beings to fill it.
What I'm saying is humans have already "made" a realm and congrats, you've found it. :smile:
I'm just not sure how AI having sentience could jive with Buddhist teachings, from realms to karma to the four modes of birth.
Thoughts?

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by boda » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:43 am
boda wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:56 am
Was the human mind intelligently designed?
The human mind was not created.
Hey we agree! Has that ever happened before?

Anyway, to date in neural network computing, machines can’t code better than people but they can code over a thousand times faster. They can produce simulations and solve problems, a heuristic essentially similar to evolution. So theoretically they could design themselves.

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Re: Would advanced AI possess Buddha-nature?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:06 pm

boda wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:43 am
boda wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:56 am
Was the human mind intelligently designed?
The human mind was not created.
Hey we agree! Has that ever happened before?

Anyway, to date in neural network computing, machines can’t code better than people but they can code over a thousand times faster. They can produce simulations and solve problems, a heuristic essentially similar to evolution. So theoretically they could design themselves.
Theoretically. But humans cannot really design themselves, so how can something that is designed and produced by humans surpass humans?

Anyway, humans don't code experience. Our functioning goes way beyond binary. And then there is that little matter of emotions that throws a spanner into AI design. How can you code for that? Emotions are evolutionary traits too.

Consider masochism: logically a being will wish to avoid harm, but here we have people that desire to be harmed. How do you code for that? On the basis of probability? You code for 2.2% of male AI machines and 1.3% of female AI machines to display masochistic disorder?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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