DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

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SongWriter
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DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by SongWriter » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:48 pm

i've read DJKR's statement in response to the sogyal rinpoche uproar. read it twice. appreciate the clarity and insights. couldn't help but reflect on all the teachers with whom i've spent time (it amounts to twelve or thirteen now) and never have i entered into a clear and full agreement that any one of them would be my guru in the official vajrayana sense. want to be very careful, examining the teacher, before jumping in. people who know a lot about eastern-clothed dharma are in a position to comment on whether or not as such it really is dharma but they have no idea as to whether or not there are western equivalents, particularly in the indigenous communities of the western hemisphere, unless they have explored those enough to make that assessment too. instead to assume that the west has NO dharma of its own origins is ignorant unless one insists that dharma still be mixed with some degree of eastern culture(s) in order to be dharma at all. it's easy to see none of the trappings of eastern cultures out here in the tribal country of rocky mountain america. but it's stupid to assume there's no dharma here until the tibetan-styled or some other eastern-ish version arrives. as DJKR says, dharma is totally beyond culture; to confuse the two is to confuse ignorance with dharma, if we go with the way DJKR defines culture--as ignorance. what's interesting, though, is that language and culture are synonymous, and so do we say that language is also ignorance? and if so, maybe we ought to have our dharma with no language. or do we employ language/ignorance as a pathway to enlightenment by insisting that we have language as at least a partial means of enlightenment transmission? is it like climbing a ladder--a case where one grabs a rung over one's head and in so doing regards it as "higher," using it to pull oneself upward, only to then step on it and turn it into a "lower” thing, even though in its lower position it's holding all the weight?

diamind
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by diamind » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:13 am

it's easy to see none of the trappings of eastern cultures out here in the tribal country of rocky mountain america. but it's stupid to assume there's no dharma here until the tibetan-styled or some other eastern-ish version arrives.


"Theres some very sweet and nieve people who seem to think that we can combine all the religions, after all they are same right? They all believe in love and compassion, they all believe good things and they all burn similar incense, so let's put them all together. This can't not be done, more importantly this should not be done! " djkr

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Harimoo
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Harimoo » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:42 pm

Culture and tradition/religion are mixed. Tradition/religion are related to the place and the time of the people who profess it.
Tibetan buddhism is tibetan and buddhist. No tradition/religion ever spread without mixing with the local customs/previous tradition.

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm

In general, many of the westerners who are involved in tibetan buddhism are not well-adjusted people.
Naturally this will bring alot of problems.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:13 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm
In general, many of the westerners who are involved in tibetan buddhism are not well-adjusted people.
Naturally this will bring alot of problems.

true dat
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:24 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm
In general, many of the westerners who are involved in tibetan buddhism are not well-adjusted people.
Naturally this will bring alot of problems.
Are tibetans well adjusted to buddhism? ☺

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kirtu
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:39 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm
In general, many of the westerners who are involved in tibetan buddhism are not well-adjusted people.
Naturally this will bring alot of problems.
What is your defintion of "well-adjusted" ?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:16 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:24 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm
In general, many of the westerners who are involved in tibetan buddhism are not well-adjusted people.
Naturally this will bring alot of problems.
Are tibetans well adjusted to buddhism? ☺
They are born into and grow up in and are educated within a Buddhist culture, I guess that will make them somewhat more well-adjusted to Buddhism then we are.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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kirtu
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:16 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:24 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm
In general, many of the westerners who are involved in tibetan buddhism are not well-adjusted people.
Naturally this will bring alot of problems.
Are tibetans well adjusted to buddhism? ☺
They are born into and grow up in and are educated within a Buddhist culture, I guess that will make them somewhat more well-adjusted to Buddhism then we are.
Why do you suppose that? Many are not serious practitioners and have at most a passing familiarity with Dharma.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Miroku » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am

Not sure what you mean by not well-adjusted people, but I think that buddhadharma can really help them. I myself have started with practice quite early in my life and in the process of dealing with my insecurities I nearly became an alcoholic, before stopping and taking practice way more seriously and it helped a lot. Or at least I think there is some progress meaning that I can stand being sober even when really bad emotions arise.

I think that one doesn't have to be "well-adjusted" (whatever that is) to practice buddhism and vajrayana. I think that one just needs to have common sense and find a good teacher. And maybe leave really close relationship with a teacher for later time when one is able to work with that.

I am starting to think that our believe in existence of well-adjusted and normal people is what is keeping us from being well-adjusted and normal. :D
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:24 am

kirtu wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am
Why do you suppose that? Many are not serious practitioners and have at most a passing familiarity with Dharma.

Kirt
I am sure that anybody brought up in a Buddhist culture will have more than a passing familiarity with (at least) the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, that alone means they have a better sense of adjustment to Buddhism than Westerners.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:19 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:16 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:24 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm
In general, many of the westerners who are involved in tibetan buddhism are not well-adjusted people.
Naturally this will bring alot of problems.
Are tibetans well adjusted to buddhism? ☺
They are born into and grow up in and are educated within a Buddhist culture, I guess that will make them somewhat more well-adjusted to Buddhism then we are.
That doesn't make sense. Buddhist country doesn't makes good buddhists.

How many tibetans are just asking only for blessings but doesn't want teaching, or want only benefits but of realization nothing?

How many tibetan lamas turned buddhism into politics and a money machine?

How many practitioners turned buddhism into sects and actually destroy it?

Is evident that regardin tibet and tibetans too many things have been taken for granted.

Tibet was an isolated place, that's all. And tibetans are no saints.

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:29 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am


I am starting to think that our believe in existence of well-adjusted and normal people is what is keeping us from being well-adjusted and normal. :D
"The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well"

-Alfred Adler

Seriously though, you're right.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:42 pm

I'd like to point out that Tibetans are not the only non-westerners interested in Tibetan Buddhism.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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weitsicht
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by weitsicht » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:20 pm

Tradition, Culture, Religion, Guru, all are upaya
Useful means to realize ultimate truth
If visualizing Billie Holiday rather than a thangka Image is more useful for you, please go ahead, DJKR says.

Which upaya(s) fit(s) each one of us, being White, and or Female, and or Generation-Y, and or Banker, and or having thisandthis karmic tendency, and or ...
is the Job of each of our Bodhicitta pursuit - in order to help ourselves and the ones (in one way or another) similar to us
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

Fortyeightvows
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:28 pm

kirtu wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:39 am
What is your defintion of "well-adjusted" ?
Mentally and emotionally stable. Well socialized. Owns at most only a few cats.

passel
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by passel » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:15 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:29 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am


I am starting to think that our believe in existence of well-adjusted and normal people is what is keeping us from being well-adjusted and normal. :D
"The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well"

-Alfred Adler

Seriously though, you're right.
There’s a line from Patrul that’s similar:

When you see people from a distance, they look like majestic yaks grazing on a hillside. When you draw nearer they just look like sickly sheep. Viewed right up close, all you see is ticks and live”
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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dzogchungpa
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:54 pm

passel wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:15 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:29 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am


I am starting to think that our believe in existence of well-adjusted and normal people is what is keeping us from being well-adjusted and normal. :D
"The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well"

-Alfred Adler

Seriously though, you're right.
There’s a line from Patrul that’s similar:

When you see people from a distance, they look like majestic yaks grazing on a hillside. When you draw nearer they just look like sickly sheep. Viewed right up close, all you see is ticks and live”
Some people actually look pretty good up close, but I agree that it is rare.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

Pero
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Pero » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:24 am
kirtu wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am
Why do you suppose that? Many are not serious practitioners and have at most a passing familiarity with Dharma.

Kirt
I am sure that anybody brought up in a Buddhist culture will have more than a passing familiarity with (at least) the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, that alone means they have a better sense of adjustment to Buddhism than Westerners.
Why? The only people who have that are those who are actually interested in it. It's like saying the average church goer over here has more than a passing familiarity with Christianity. Not very likely since most go out of habit/custom/superficiality. Also, the impression I got a few times from seeing some FB posts by Tibetans/Butanese/Nepalese (not sure exactly) is that some of them are quite confused, thinking the Buddha is the same as God... I also remember years back a schoolmate telling me he watched a documentary about one of the Buddhist countries and how people there said that Buddhism is their religion and we Westerners should leave them/it alone and how he agreed with that...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Queequeg
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:33 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:54 pm
Some people actually look pretty good up close, but I agree that it is rare.
You depraved animal.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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