DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

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Motova
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Motova » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:30 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:33 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:54 pm
Some people actually look pretty good up close, but I agree that it is rare.
You depraved animal.
Watch out.

Chung forgives.

But Chung does not forget.

:sage:

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:39 pm

Pero wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:32 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:24 am
kirtu wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am
Why do you suppose that? Many are not serious practitioners and have at most a passing familiarity with Dharma.

Kirt
I am sure that anybody brought up in a Buddhist culture will have more than a passing familiarity with (at least) the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, that alone means they have a better sense of adjustment to Buddhism than Westerners.
Why? The only people who have that are those who are actually interested in it. It's like saying the average church goer over here has more than a passing familiarity with Christianity. Not very likely since most go out of habit/custom/superficiality. Also, the impression I got a few times from seeing some FB posts by Tibetans/Butanese/Nepalese (not sure exactly) is that some of them are quite confused, thinking the Buddha is the same as God... I also remember years back a schoolmate telling me he watched a documentary about one of the Buddhist countries and how people there said that Buddhism is their religion and we Westerners should leave them/it alone and how he agreed with that...
This is my impression as well. I have known a number of Asian Buddhists who grew up in nominally Buddhist culture that knew next to nothing about it, but still considered themselves Buddhist. I did find their devotion admirable in many cases, but the lack of familiarity with basic tenets was pretty surprising. More interest in blessings, merit through donation etc. I don't think those are bad things, but I don't think many of the people i'm thinking of, if any, had much familiarity with the Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, even the Perfections....let alone shunyata, etc. The fact is most people's spirituality period does not extend much beyond interest in social occasion and indirect blessing...regardless of culture.
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Malcolm
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:44 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:39 pm
The fact is most people's spirituality period does not extend much beyond interest in social occasion and indirect blessing...regardless of culture.

Hence Ganapujas.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:52 pm

Well, there are many, many Chinese and Taiwanese Buddhists with a serious interest in Tibetan Buddhism, and from what I have seen in my area they do tend to be more "well-adjusted" than the corresponding Americans. Since this thread is nominally related to DJKR, perhaps I should point out the provocative observation quoted here:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17016&p=245693#p245693
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:54 pm

Maybe that society values 'knowledge' and 'education' so much is why the religious people of modern times feel the need to know theology.

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:29 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:30 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:33 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:54 pm
Some people actually look pretty good up close, but I agree that it is rare.
You depraved animal.
Watch out.

Chung forgives.

But Chung does not forget.

:sage:

Actually, I don't ususally forgive either, but I just can't stay mad at QQ. :smile:
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:55 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:30 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:33 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:54 pm
Some people actually look pretty good up close, but I agree that it is rare.
You depraved animal.
Watch out.

Chung forgives.

But Chung does not forget.

:sage:
I'm already on the sh*tlist. And Chung is on mine.

Oh, scratch that. Just saw Chung's last post... Um, uh, what sh*tlist? My lawyer got a hold of my twitter.
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:24 am
kirtu wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am
Why do you suppose that? Many are not serious practitioners and have at most a passing familiarity with Dharma.

Kirt
I am sure that anybody brought up in a Buddhist culture will have more than a passing familiarity with (at least) the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, that alone means they have a better sense of adjustment to Buddhism than Westerners.
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).

Ethnic TB's do not necessarily have much familiarity with the Eightfold Path.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:42 am

kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
They exist in California, too.

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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:44 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:28 pm
kirtu wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:39 am
What is your defintion of "well-adjusted" ?
Well socialized.
So you are committed to the eight worldly concerns and conformity rather than
lovingkindness, compassion and wisdom?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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kirtu
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:42 am
kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
They exist in California, too.

Yes but California culture itself is not influenced by Buddhism whereas Hawaii is to some extent.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:02 am

kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:42 am
kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
They exist in California, too.

Yes but California culture itself is not influenced by Buddhism whereas Hawaii is to some extent.

Kirt
Oh, right, that's true. Missed that part of your comment!

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kirtu
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by kirtu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:01 am

passel wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:15 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:29 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:21 am


I am starting to think that our believe in existence of well-adjusted and normal people is what is keeping us from being well-adjusted and normal. :D
"The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well"

-Alfred Adler

Seriously though, you're right.
There’s a line from Patrul that’s similar:

When you see people from a distance, they look like majestic yaks grazing on a hillside. When you draw nearer they just look like sickly sheep. Viewed right up close, all you see is ticks and live”
I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be "ticks and lice."

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

passel
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by passel » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:21 am

Damn you autocorrect
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Virgo
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Virgo » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:53 am

passel wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:21 am
Damn you autocorrect


Kevin

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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am

kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
While this may be true, it is also completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
Ethnic TB's do not necessarily have much familiarity with the Eightfold Path.

Kirt
And ethnic Christians (WTF?) don't have much familiarity with the 10 commandments and the seven deadly sins, but they don't need to since most of it is codified in law. You don't need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" is the 5th (!) commandment in order to know that murder is not acceptable, or "Thou shalt not covet"is the 10th commandment to know that stealing is not okay.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am
kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
While this may be true, it is also completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
Ethnic TB's do not necessarily have much familiarity with the Eightfold Path.

Kirt
And ethnic Christians (WTF?) don't have much familiarity with the 10 commandments and the seven deadly sins, but they don't need to since most of it is codified in law. You don't need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" is the 5th (!) commandment in order to know that murder is not acceptable, or "Thou shalt not covet"is the 10th commandment to know that stealing is not okay.
The FNT and the 8FP were never codified into Tibetan law, or the law of any other Buddhist country.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:09 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am
kirtu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 am
There are in fact Westerners raised as Buddhists in a somewhat Buddhist culture (Buddhists in Hawaii for example, possibly in other parts of the US as well).
While this may be true, it is also completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
Ethnic TB's do not necessarily have much familiarity with the Eightfold Path.

Kirt
And ethnic Christians (WTF?) don't have much familiarity with the 10 commandments and the seven deadly sins, but they don't need to since most of it is codified in law. You don't need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" is the 5th (!) commandment in order to know that murder is not acceptable, or "Thou shalt not covet"is the 10th commandment to know that stealing is not okay.
The FNT and the 8FP were never codified into Tibetan law, or the law of any other Buddhist country.
Really? So taking life is allowed in Buddhist countries, as is taking what is not given? Somehow I think not. Thus...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:09 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am
While this may be true, it is also completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
And ethnic Christians (WTF?) don't have much familiarity with the 10 commandments and the seven deadly sins, but they don't need to since most of it is codified in law. You don't need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" is the 5th (!) commandment in order to know that murder is not acceptable, or "Thou shalt not covet"is the 10th commandment to know that stealing is not okay.
The FNT and the 8FP were never codified into Tibetan law, or the law of any other Buddhist country.
Really? So taking life is allowed in Buddhist countries, as is taking what is not given? Somehow I think not. Thus...

People in Buddhist countries kill all the time. The precent of not taking life is not only applicable to human beings. In any case, the five precepts are not a part of the 4NT, and as far as right livelihood goes...I think you are being a tad idealistic.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dharma in the West...

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
People in Buddhist countries kill all the time. The precent of not taking life is not only applicable to human beings. In any case, the five precepts are not a part of the 4NT, and as far as right livelihood goes...I think you are being a tad idealistic.
No, I don't think I am being idealistic, and the fact that people kill, rob, etc is not evidence of a lack of codification of religious beliefs into law.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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