Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

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Vasana
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Vasana » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:08 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:05 pm
Maybe they were
Can you find a text to support your 'maybe'? The Prajnaparamita suggests otherwise.

The Transcendent Perfection of Wisdom in Ten Thousand Lines
[size=85]http://read.84000.co/translati ... tml[/size]
  • Chapter 30. Inherent Existence

    30.39 “This is the emptiness of inherent existence. Abiding therein, great bodhisattva beings who practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom liberate sentient beings from erroneous views. That is to say, they liberate those sentient beings who perceive that non-sentient beings are sentient, and similarly, who perceive that they are permanent, who perceive that they are imbued with happiness, who perceive that they are a self, who perceive that they are attractive, and similarly who perceive that there are physical forms, feelings, perceptions, formative predispositions, and consciousness, from [all these notions], up to and including the notion that there is consciousness. "


    30:41 Great bodhisattva beings, abiding in this emptiness of inherent existence, practice the understanding of the aspects of the path in order to liberate from all notions those sentient beings who have the notion that they are sentient beings.

    30.46
    “Those ordinary people with diverse notions think that physical forms are one distinct thing and the emptiness of inherent existence another‌, and similarly they think that [the other‌ aggregates], up to and including consciousness, are distinct things and the emptiness of inherent existence another‌, and in the same vein, they think that [all the attributes and attainments], up to and including unsurpassed, genuinely perfect enlightenment, are distinct things and the emptiness of inherent existence another‌. By thinking accordingly, they become fixated on physical forms. Similarly, they become fixated on feelings, perceptions, formative predispositions, and consciousness, [F.350.b] and so they indulge in notions of ‘I’ and ‘mine,’ and also become fixated upon them. Having become fixated, they will [at the time of their rebirth] generate physical forms, and similarly they will generate feelings, perceptions, formative predispositions, and consciousness. They will not be liberated from rebirth, aging, ill health, death, sorrow, lamentations, sufferings, discomforts, and agitations. They will not be released from the cycle of cyclic existence, with its five classes of living beings.
    "
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Supramundane » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:38 am

i don't think anyone is on the same wavelength as me...

"Buddha nature is all-encompassing. This Buddha nature is present just as the shining sun is present in the sky"
---Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

The Luminous Mind is there whether you are aware of it or not, like the sun.

this is what i meant.

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Supramundane » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:52 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:11 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:05 pm
Maybe they were
I wasn't, and I am included in the category "all beings". So nope, they weren't all liberated.

Were you?
please tell me then what is the difference between an enlightened being and yourself...

according to the Diamond Sutra, individual enlightenment is an oxymoron. the dharmakaya is all beings. none can be separated.

the Buddha was enlightened... therefore...

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:04 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:52 am
please tell me then what is the difference between an enlightened being and yourself...
:rolling: I don't think the forum's platform could support a post which is that long...
according to the Diamond Sutra, individual enlightenment is an oxymoron. the dharmakaya is all beings. none can be separated.
Well you better bring up a quote or two then, because it seems to me that you are misinterpreting the Lotus Sutra and are confused about the dharmakaya and the function of the Tathagatagarbha. You seem to be saying that the dharmakaya is like some sort of Maha-Brahma or Brahman that includes all sentient beings.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:52 am
please tell me then what is the difference between an enlightened being and yourself...
Since no being ever entered Nirvana, there are no enlightened or unenlightened beings, therefore you know and are the difference you are asking about by the very inquiry.

The notion of "same" designates the differences, talking about sameness and differences are merely conceptions the conditional mind adds to perceptions, when released of (intellectual) delusion, it is known as "Nirvana"
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Vasana » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:52 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:52 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:11 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:05 pm
Maybe they were
I wasn't, and I am included in the category "all beings". So nope, they weren't all liberated.

Were you?
please tell me then what is the difference between an enlightened being and yourself...

according to the Diamond Sutra, individual enlightenment is an oxymoron. the dharmakaya is all beings. none can be separated.

the Buddha was enlightened... therefore...
Please read thea Prajnaparamita linked above. It's an ellaborated version of whatever Diamond sutra you read.

It directly deals with your misconceptions about the relationship between relative truth and ultimate truth, dependent origination, karma, the continuity of aggregates and so on. Don't believe me, see the extended conversations between Buddha, Subhuti,
Shariputra and so on.

I even shared some quotes...
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Since no being ever entered Nirvana...
Really? That's interesting. Have you ever heard of Shakyamuni Buddha (for example)?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Since no being ever entered Nirvana...
Really? That's interesting. Have you ever heard of Shakyamuni Buddha (for example)?
Check the Diamond Sutra.
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https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:43 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:26 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Since no being ever entered Nirvana...
Really? That's interesting. Have you ever heard of Shakyamuni Buddha (for example)?
Check the Diamond Sutra.
The Diamond Sutra says that Shakyamuni Buddha was not enlightened?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Vasana » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:24 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:38 am
i don't think anyone is on the same wavelength as me...

"Buddha nature is all-encompassing. This Buddha nature is present just as the shining sun is present in the sky"
---Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

The Luminous Mind is there whether you are aware of it or not, like the sun.

this is what i meant.
That's fine. Beings possess Buddha-Nature, but unless they actually recognize it and stabilize that recognition it has no more use than a jewel hidden under your own house. Having Buddha Nature is one thing but realizing the fruition kayas is another.

You have been saying that since beings possess Buddha-nature, they are already liberated and are free from suffering. This is evidently not the case.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.


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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by seeker242 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Since no being ever entered Nirvana...
Really? That's interesting. Have you ever heard of Shakyamuni Buddha (for example)?
If Tathagata can't be defined as "a being", then no "being" has ever entered Nirvana. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:54 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Since no being ever entered Nirvana...
Really? That's interesting. Have you ever heard of Shakyamuni Buddha (for example)?
If Tathagata can't be defined as "a being", then no "being" has ever entered Nirvana. :smile:
The Buddha had a career, a long and complicated one, but a career as a Bodhisattva none the less. So he was a being. A being that, upon achieving Nirvana, became a Buddha. After his Mahaparinirvana he was no longer a being.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by seeker242 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:54 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 pm
Really? That's interesting. Have you ever heard of Shakyamuni Buddha (for example)?
If Tathagata can't be defined as "a being", then no "being" has ever entered Nirvana. :smile:
The Buddha had a career, a long and complicated one, but a career as a Bodhisattva none the less. So he was a being. A being that, upon achieving Nirvana, became a Buddha. After his Mahaparinirvana he was no longer a being.
No being means non-self, empty of self, anattā, etc.
The Buddha told Subhåti, “all Bodhisattvas, Mahàsattvas,
should thus subdue their hearts with the vow, “I must
cause all living beings — those born from eggs, born
from wombs, born from moisture, born by transformation;
those with form, those without form, those with thought,
those without thought, those not totally with thought,
and those not totally without thought — to enter nirvàõa
without residue and be taken across to extinction.

Yet of
the immeasurable, boundless numbers of living beings
thus taken across to extinction, there is actually no living
being taken across to extinction.
And why? Subhåti, if
a Bodhisattva has a mark of self, a mark of others, a
mark of living beings, or a mark of a life, he is not a
Bodhisattva.
One who enters nirvana has no marks.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:17 pm

seeker242 wrote:No being means non-self, empty of self, anattā, etc.
In which case none of us are beings, since we all lack self/atman.

And, I'm sorry, but doesn't the word "sattva" mean being?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by seeker242 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:25 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:17 pm
seeker242 wrote:No being means non-self, empty of self, anattā, etc.
In which case none of us are beings, since we all lack self/atman.
You could say yes or no depending on how you look at it. :smile:

Yes because of how things actually are:
"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."
An no because deluded beings, by definition are "caught up, tied up" and are therefore beings.
Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?" (Satta, Sattva)
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving
However, it's not the ones who are "caught up, tied up" who are entering nirvana.
And, I'm sorry, but doesn't the word "sattva" mean being?
Yes, that's what he's referring to in the 2nd quote above.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:35 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:25 pm
Yes, that's what he's referring to in the 2nd quote above.
So how is a BodhiSATTVA not a being then? I mean, at a relative level, since at the ultimate level there are no beings.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by seeker242 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:19 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:35 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:25 pm
Yes, that's what he's referring to in the 2nd quote above.
So how is a BodhiSATTVA not a being then? I mean, at a relative level, since at the ultimate level there are no beings.
I don't see "no beings" as being applicable to the relative level since it's an ultimate level statement to begin with. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Supramundane » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:53 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:04 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:52 am
please tell me then what is the difference between an enlightened being and yourself...
:rolling: I don't think the forum's platform could support a post which is that long...
you are very modest and i appreciate your sense of humor, G:)

i was under the impression that all beings possessed a luminous mind and they were enlightened, but simply didn't realize it. it is not a matter of changing ourselves but simply a matter of pushing away the clouds to reveal the sunlight of our Buddhahood.

therefore, in this light, a Boddhisatva would be one who realized that all beings were enlightened already... there is no need in that sense to liberate anyone.

But i am not going to try to quote sutra to oppose senior members such as Vasana and yourself.

i stand corrected. i will read the over the quotes you gave me and think this one over again.

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Supramundane » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:56 am

Vasana wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:24 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:38 am
i don't think anyone is on the same wavelength as me...

"Buddha nature is all-encompassing. This Buddha nature is present just as the shining sun is present in the sky"
---Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

The Luminous Mind is there whether you are aware of it or not, like the sun.

this is what i meant.
That's fine. Beings possess Buddha-Nature, but unless they actually recognize it and stabilize that recognition it has no more use than a jewel hidden under your own house. Having Buddha Nature is one thing but realizing the fruition kayas is another.

You have been saying that since beings possess Buddha-nature, they are already liberated and are free from suffering. This is evidently not the case.
but the Boddhisatva does... right?

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