Dharmakaya in Mahayana

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:16 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:15 am
The gap between thoughts is just stillness [gnas pa], thoughts are movement [gyu ba], and the knower is a relative cognition.
If i take the rocks out of a hole, I have manufactured space.

Is that manufactured space different from the space that existed in the hole before I took the rocks out?

If yes, if there are really two separate, different kinds of space, then why the emphasis on the "gap-between-thoughts" view, which is a common view?

The dharmakaya, beyond the intellect, is ultimate reality.
Guru Rinpoche

From within the nature of originally pure stainless space,
Awareness suddenly manifests. That moment of mindfulness
Is like finding a jewel at the bottom of the ocean.
This is dharmakaya, not fabricated nor created by anyone.

Garab Dorje
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by krodha » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:18 pm

Tathāgatagarbha is a term used to designate the dharmakāya when obscured by adventitious affliction.

Dharmakāya is only "inherent" in the sense that it is the innate and actual nature of mind that is unrecognized and obstructed by delusion.

That nature is inseparable emptiness and clarity.

In that sense all that is being said is that the mind's lack of essence is an innate property, just as phenomena's lack of essence is an innate property.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:19 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:25 pm
Also on another note ,are they a thing?
Is "green" a thing? :)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

krodha
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by krodha » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:16 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:15 am
The gap between thoughts is just stillness [gnas pa], thoughts are movement [gyu ba], and the knower is a relative cognition.
If i take the rocks out of a hole, I have manufactured space.

Is that manufactured space different from the space that existed in the hole before I took the rocks out?

If yes, if there are really two separate, different kinds of space, then why the emphasis on the "gap-between-thoughts" view, which is a common view?

The dharmakaya, beyond the intellect, is ultimate reality.
Guru Rinpoche

From within the nature of originally pure stainless space,
Awareness suddenly manifests. That moment of mindfulness
Is like finding a jewel at the bottom of the ocean.
This is dharmakaya, not fabricated nor created by anyone.

Garab Dorje
From the standpoint of dharmakāya there is no thoughts or gaps, because thoughts never arose to begin with.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm

krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:18 pm
Tathāgatagarbha is a term used to designate the dharmakāya when obscured by adventitious affliction.

Dharmakāya is only "inherent" in the sense that it is the innate and actual nature of mind that is unrecognized and obstructed by delusion.

That nature is inseparable emptiness and clarity.

In that sense all that is being said is that the mind's lack of essence is an innate property, just as phenomena's lack of essence is an innate property.
Inherent and innate are synonyms, are they not?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:26 pm

krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm
From the standpoint of dharmakāya there is no thoughts or gaps, because thoughts never arose to begin with.
Then why describe it as purity, stainless, etc.?

PS:

On the other hand ...

When you look into a thought's identity, without having to dissolve the thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware emptiness. We call this seeing the natural face of innate thought or thought dawns as dharmakaya.
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

PPS:

And ...

In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of mind.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by krodha » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm
krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:18 pm
Tathāgatagarbha is a term used to designate the dharmakāya when obscured by adventitious affliction.

Dharmakāya is only "inherent" in the sense that it is the innate and actual nature of mind that is unrecognized and obstructed by delusion.

That nature is inseparable emptiness and clarity.

In that sense all that is being said is that the mind's lack of essence is an innate property, just as phenomena's lack of essence is an innate property.
Inherent and innate are synonyms, are they not?
Sure, the point is that we aren't talking about an inherent substantial nature, but rather that a lack of nature is the authentic mode of all things, and in this sense, since it is unrecognized, it is an innate aspect of apparent things that we must recognize.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:35 pm

given that Dharmakaya is beyond comprehension... it occurred to me that maybe the experience of yogis who "see" it is actually an experience some sort of synesthesia.

:shrug:
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:36 pm

krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:26 pm
Sure, the point is that we aren't talking about an inherent substantial nature, but rather that a lack of nature is the authentic mode of all things, and in this sense, since it is unrecognized, it is an innate aspect of apparent things that we must recognize.
Seems oxymoronic, doesn't it? An inherent lack.

It is clumsy too.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say that beings lack an inherent nature, rather than saying they have an inherent lack of nature? :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

krodha
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by krodha » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:36 pm
krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:26 pm
Sure, the point is that we aren't talking about an inherent substantial nature, but rather that a lack of nature is the authentic mode of all things, and in this sense, since it is unrecognized, it is an innate aspect of apparent things that we must recognize.
Seems oxymoronic, doesn't it? An inherent lack.

It is clumsy too.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say that beings lack an inherent nature, rather than saying they have an inherent lack of nature? :smile:
Hence our "essenceless essence" or "natureless nature."

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by krodha » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:45 pm

There's no necessity to say there is an "inherent lack of nature", use whatever terms you like as long as the intended meaning is communicated.

You just seemed to be inquiring in what context we can say dharmakāya is innate or inherent.

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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by krodha » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:22 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:26 pm
krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm
From the standpoint of dharmakāya there is no thoughts or gaps, because thoughts never arose to begin with.
Then why describe it as purity, stainless, etc.?
Dharmakāya is pure and stainless because it has never known affliction and is primordially unconditioned.
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:26 pm
PS:

On the other hand ...

When you look into a thought's identity, without having to dissolve the thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware emptiness. We call this seeing the natural face of innate thought or thought dawns as dharmakaya.
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

PPS:

And ...

In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of mind.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
The insight involved very much has to do with the actual nature of the trio of stillness, movement and their knower [gnas gyu rig gsum], so these quotes are addressing the same principle.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm
krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:18 pm
Tathāgatagarbha is a term used to designate the dharmakāya when obscured by adventitious affliction.

Dharmakāya is only "inherent" in the sense that it is the innate and actual nature of mind that is unrecognized and obstructed by delusion.

That nature is inseparable emptiness and clarity.

In that sense all that is being said is that the mind's lack of essence is an innate property, just as phenomena's lack of essence is an innate property.
Inherent and innate are synonyms, are they not?
not in the case of Buddhist thought anyway. the language can be deceiving . it's like the word suchness ,when used in Buddhist thought. It's not exactly what it is used to point to but the best we can use in english...from a discussion with an english and a Rinpoche in a group.

inherent means it is a fixed object .it is always going to be the same for it is inherent.it does not change for it is inherent. nothing is inherent for it depends on so many factors to exist.this is how the word is used to come to the view of Sunyata.

innate opens up a different way of viewing something . it does not connote inherency . something can be innate and latent .something can be innate but it is empty of inherency.

One really needs to understand the usage of the word emptiness when trying to come to the Sunyata view.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:36 pm
krodha wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:26 pm
Sure, the point is that we aren't talking about an inherent substantial nature, but rather that a lack of nature is the authentic mode of all things, and in this sense, since it is unrecognized, it is an innate aspect of apparent things that we must recognize.
Seems oxymoronic, doesn't it? An inherent lack.

It is clumsy too.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say that beings lack an inherent nature, rather than saying they have an inherent lack of nature? :smile:
Ha! that went somewhere for me then crashed. it is good though for it causes one to rethink the situation at hand.

my last post discussed the "clumsiness" of the english language when used to describe Buddhist thought..then i read this...

i was taught the danger of talking about sunyata with people who do not get the way emptiness is used.

last year it went a little off the rails for some Dzogchen practitioners were taught of an emptiness in their realization that had nothing to do with Sunyata and was in fact another subject ...so we were talking about two different things until someone came to the rescue.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:36 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:26 pm
inherent means it is a fixed object .
Ummmmm, no. The quality of permanence in inherency has to do with the fact that it is always (permanently) present. Is Dharmakaya a permanent presence? That would make it inherent in all phenomena. ie Innate.

That is why I am saying they are synonyms: inherent, built-in, constitutional, deep-rooted, deep-seated, essential, fundamental, genetic, implicit, ingrained, innate, instinctive, internal, intrinsic, latent, natural.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by Minobu » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:22 am

Dharmakāya is pure and stainless because it has never known affliction and is primordially unconditioned.
with all respect to yours and other persons for what i am about to ask.

We were given a long list of pretty much the same poetic descriptions of Dharmakaya Here

But we still find ourselves trying to tell each other what it actually is ...

can anyone actually tell me what it is...do any of these Great Masters actually tell us what it us.

Nichiren Shonin would just say "It is something that only can be shared with Buddhas"

Our resident Master posted the first post in this thread with...This
and still never commented on the subject.

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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:56 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 pm
krodha wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:22 am

Dharmakāya is pure and stainless because it has never known affliction and is primordially unconditioned.
with all respect to yours and other persons for what i am about to ask.

We were given a long list of pretty much the same poetic descriptions of Dharmakaya Here

But we still find ourselves trying to tell each other what it actually is ...

can anyone actually tell me what it is...do any of these Great Masters actually tell us what it us.

Nichiren Shonin would just say "It is something that only can be shared with Buddhas"

Our resident Master posted the first post in this thread with...This
and still never commented on the subject.
I found that post useful. It is not poetic, it has clear answers about what dharmakaya is.

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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by Minobu » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:08 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:56 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 pm
krodha wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:22 am

Dharmakāya is pure and stainless because it has never known affliction and is primordially unconditioned.
with all respect to yours and other persons for what i am about to ask.

We were given a long list of pretty much the same poetic descriptions of Dharmakaya Here

But we still find ourselves trying to tell each other what it actually is ...

can anyone actually tell me what it is...do any of these Great Masters actually tell us what it us.

Nichiren Shonin would just say "It is something that only can be shared with Buddhas"

Our resident Master posted the first post in this thread with...This
and still never commented on the subject.
I found that post useful. It is not poetic, it has clear answers about what dharmakaya is.
ok well maybe i missed something...can you tell me from what you read what dharmakaya is then ...please.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:37 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 pm
We were given a long list of pretty much the same poetic descriptions of Dharmakaya Here

But we still find ourselves trying to tell each other what it actually is ...

can anyone actually tell me what it is...do any of these Great Masters actually tell us what it us.
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:30 am
Ārya-trikāya-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra:
  • Son of a good family, meaning of the dharmakāya of the tathāgatas is the absence of intrinsic nature, like space.
What is an absence of intrinsic nature? It is emptiness[.]
Pretty clear.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Aryjna
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:48 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:08 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:56 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 pm

with all respect to yours and other persons for what i am about to ask.

We were given a long list of pretty much the same poetic descriptions of Dharmakaya Here

But we still find ourselves trying to tell each other what it actually is ...

can anyone actually tell me what it is...do any of these Great Masters actually tell us what it us.

Nichiren Shonin would just say "It is something that only can be shared with Buddhas"

Our resident Master posted the first post in this thread with...This
and still never commented on the subject.
I found that post useful. It is not poetic, it has clear answers about what dharmakaya is.
ok well maybe i missed something...can you tell me from what you read what dharmakaya is then ...please.
But it is explained in a few different ways in all these quotes. I cannot say it better myself of course, and it may create confusion.

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