Dharmakaya in Mahayana

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muni
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by muni » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:27 pm
muni wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:07 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:29 pm


Yes, ChNNR points that out many times, it seems it is a relatively common mistake.
Nobody said "is".
Sure you did:
Between two thoughts, there is a gap, indescridable openess revealing.
Ah! Is a gap.
Dharmakaya cannot be revealed by being caught up in thinking.

Milarepa: “In the gap between two thoughts, thought-free wakefulness manifest unceasingly.”

“All movement of thought is the play of original wakefulness".
"The essence of what thinks is dharmakaya. The thinking itself is not dharmakaya”. Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by steveb1 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:42 pm

Punya wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:32 am
Now how the Dharma Kaya relates to or 'contains' samsara is an interesting question and not something I've seen specifically answered exactly.
This is just a thought, so see what you think. Thrangu Rinpoche says:
All illusory appearances of condition existence are only an illusion they are only the result of a mistake, of a misapprehension of the truth, they are only a delusion..... When we speak about liberation it means the end of all mistakes the end of Illusion. What we need to do is awake and from this mistake which is like sleep. Or we can say to remove the mistake..... So we say "awakened" or cleared away" rather than "to remove or eliminate", because it is not a matter of taking away and external object, but is a matter of understanding our mistake, our illusion.
So this is how dharmakaya relates to samsara. Make the mistake and samsara is experienced, correct the mistake and dharmakaya is experienced.
...it would then seem that I have ... just a few ... mistakes to correct.

;)

Thanks for your comments.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:20 pm

Punya wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:32 am
Now how the Dharma Kaya relates to or 'contains' samsara is an interesting question and not something I've seen specifically answered exactly.
This is just a thought, so see what you think. Thrangu Rinpoche says:
All illusory appearances of condition existence are only an illusion they are only the result of a mistake, of a misapprehension of the truth, they are only a delusion..... When we speak about liberation it means the end of all mistakes the end of Illusion. What we need to do is awake and from this mistake which is like sleep. Or we can say to remove the mistake..... So we say "awakened" or cleared away" rather than "to remove or eliminate", because it is not a matter of taking away and external object, but is a matter of understanding our mistake, our illusion.
So this is how dharmakaya relates to samsara. Make the mistake and samsara is experienced, correct the mistake and dharmakaya is experienced.
That is a nice explanation, thanks Punya.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Spelare
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by Spelare » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:47 am

muni wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:27 pm
muni wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:07 pm


Nobody said "is".
Sure you did:
Between two thoughts, there is a gap, indescridable openess revealing.
Ah! Is a gap.
Dharmakaya cannot be revealed by being caught up in thinking.

Milarepa: “In the gap between two thoughts, thought-free wakefulness manifest unceasingly.”

“All movement of thought is the play of original wakefulness".
"The essence of what thinks is dharmakaya. The thinking itself is not dharmakaya”. Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
This phrasing could give the impression that a gap between thoughts is some kind of prerequisite for recognizing dharmakaya. If you were searching for the sky, you could wait for the clouds to pass, or for a gap between two clouds to open up. But are the clouds something other than the sky? And does the sky have to appear clear and blue in order for it to be the sky, or is it still the sky regardless of the weather and lighting conditions at a given moment?

Does dharmakaya disappear when there are thoughts and reappear when they are absent? Where did those thoughts come from? Where do they arise? What are they made of?
Neither person nor skandhas
but stainless wisdom is Buddha.
In knowing ever serene—
I take refuge therein.

krodha
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Re: What is Dharmakaya?

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:15 am

The gap between thoughts is just stillness [gnas pa], thoughts are movement [gyu ba], and the knower is a relative cognition. It is called "rig pa" in that model but it is merely a relative and afflicted cognitive capacity. Rig pa just means to know, or "knower" in that context, but the knower is vijñāna or dualistic consciousness.

It is not the definitive species of rig pa spoken of in these traditions, at least not yet.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:38 am

Merged threads on the same subject.
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:30 am

Here is a collection of excerpts on dharmakāya I assembled some time ago. I wasn't going to post it because it is somewhat overkill, but so far in this thread the definition of dharmakāya has been a bit vague, and the following does help address some of the questions in the original post. Hopefully it helps someone:

Dharmakāya ultimately represents a lack of an intrinsic, or essential nature, specifically the mind's ultimate lack of substantiality, from the Ārya-trikāya-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra:
  • Son of a good family, meaning of the dharmakāya of the tathāgatas is the absence of intrinsic nature, like space.
What is an absence of intrinsic nature? It is emptiness:
  • By what reasoning can it be shown that sentient beings have Buddhanature? Because all sentient beings are pervaded by the emptiness of dharmakāya... 'all sentient beings are pervaded by the emptiness of dharmakāya' means that the ultimate Buddhahood is dharmakāya, dharmakāya is all-pervading emptiness, and emptiness pervades all sentient beings.
    -- Gampopa
Thus we can see that dharmakāya can be said to be synonymous with emptiness, however the dharmakāya is specifically the total realization of emptiness at the time of the result which dawns due to the accumulation of wisdom, which is why Gampopa states clearly that "ultimate buddhahood is dharmakāya". In this respect we come to understand that buddhanature [tathāgatagarbha], dharmakāya and emptiness are not different, and that dharmakāya is released from the obscuring factors that render it "tathāgatagarbha" once the total realization of emptiness occurs, as delineated in the Śrīmālādevī-siṃhanāda-sūtra:
  • In that respect, the dharmakāya of the tathāgatagarbha is definitely released from the sheath of afflictions. Bhagavān, the so called 'tathāgatagarbha' is tathāgata's wisdom of emptiness that cannot be seen by śravakas and pratyekabuddhas.
Huang bo elaborates on the synonymous nature of dharmakāya and emptiness:
  • Emptiness is the Buddha's dharmakāya, just as the dharmakāya is emptiness. People's usual understanding is that the dharmakāya pervades emptiness, and that it is contained in emptiness. However, this is erroneous, for we should understand that the dharmakāya is emptiness and that emptiness is the dharmakāya.

    If one thinks that emptiness is an entity and that this emptiness is separate from the dharmakāya or that there is a dharmakāya outside of emptiness, one is holding a wrong view. In the complete absence of views about emptiness, the true dharmakāya appears. Emptiness and dharmakāya are not different. The most important thing is your empty, cognizant mind. Its natural emptiness is dharmakāya, also called empty essence.
The Ārya-dharmasaṃgīti-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra continues on the synonymity of these principles:
  • Whoever seeks the dharmatā of phenomena, seeks emptiness. Whoever seeks emptiness, cannot be debated by anyone. Whoever cannot be debated by anyone, abides in the Dharma of a śramaṇa. However abides in the Dharma of a śramaṇa, they do not abide anywhere; whoever does not abide anywhere, they are uncontaminated with regard to objects. Whoever is uncontaminated with regard to objects, they are without faults. Whoever is without faults, they are the dharmakāya; whoever is the dharmakāya, they are a Tathāgata; whoever is the Tathāgata, they is said to be nondual; whoever is nondual, they do not abandon samsara and do not accomplish nirvana; in other words, they are shown to be totally free of all concepts. Bhagavan, this is the Dharmasaṃgīti.
Jamgon Kongtrul continues:
  • The concluding practice is the conviction that the ordinary mind that was from the beginning the unity of clarity and emptiness is itself the naturally arising three kayas - its emptiness is dharmakāya.
As does Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:
  • The great state of dharmakāya is space-like emptiness. The expression arising out of the state of primordial purity is a spontaneous presence which includes the two form kayas - saṃbhogakāya and nirmāṇakāya. ... What that means is our essence, which is a primordially pure emptiness, is dharmakāya.
And Sakya Pandita:
  • The body of wisdom is adorned with thirty-two major marks and eighty minor marks, and is the saṃbhogakāya. The nature of that existing as emptiness is the dharmakāya.
For these reasons, the notion that dharmakāya is an independently established, monolithic pleroma is an untenable position. Dharmakāya has no foundation, root or basis, as Jigme Lingpa elaborates:
  • I myself argue 'To comprehend the meaning of the non-arising baseless, rootless dharmakāya, although reaching and the way of reaching this present conclusion "Since I have no thesis, I alone am without a fault", as in the Prasanga Madhyamaka system, is not established by an intellectual consideration such as a belief to which one adheres, but is reached by seeing the meaning of ultimate reality of the natural great completion.'
The Kun tu bzang po thugs kyi me long continues in this theme:
  • This meaningful supreme wisdom kāya, ultimate, natureless [rang bzhin med], the state of the nonarising dharmakāya, the lamp of the teachings, the great light of the dharmakāya manifests to persons who are in accord with the meaning.
Therefore we should understand that the dharmakāya and the three kāyas in general, lack the self-nature that would be required to be an established ontological entity that could be synonymous with the Brahman of Vedanta, as communicated in the Platform Sutra:
  • As to the three bodies [kāyas], the pure dharmakāya is your nature, the perfect and complete saṃbhogakāya is your wisdom, and the thousand billion nirmāṇakāyas are your practices (i.e., saṃskāra, “mental activities”). To speak of the three bodies apart from the fundamental nature is called ‘having the bodies but being without wisdom.’ If you are enlightened to [the fact that] the three bodies have no self-natures [svabhāva], then you will understand the bodhi of the four wisdoms.
The essential nature [svabhāva] of dharmakāya is essencelessness or naturelessness [niḥsvabhāva], for truly established, i.e., "existent" svabhāvas are impossibilities. From Ārya Nāgārjuna:
  • Svabhāva is by definition the subject of contradictory ascriptions. If it exists, it must belong to an existent entity, which means that it must be conditioned, dependent on other entities, and possessed of causes. But a svabhāva is by definition unconditioned, not dependent on other entities, and not caused. Thus the existence of a svabhāva is impossible.
Chokyi Dragpa states clearly that dharmakāya is empty of any essence:
  • Empty in essence, expansive like space and free from the limits of conceptual elaboration, is the dharmakāya.
The Rig pa rang shar proclaims the same:
  • The essence of the dharmakāya is empty.
This means that the conflation of dharmakāya with something like the Brahman of Vedanta, a transpersonal, ontological, truly established ultimate, is unwarranted and misguided. The great Buddhist adept Bhāviveka, addresses this misconception in many of his expositions. This excerpt from his Tarkajvala is especially pertinent:
  • If it is asked what is difference between this dharmakāya and the paramātma [bdag pa dam pa] (synonymous with Brahman) asserted in such ways as nonconceptual, permanent and unchanging, that [paramātma] they explain as subtle because it possesses the quality of subtly, is explained as gross because it possesses the quality of grossness, as unique because it possess the quality of uniqueness and as pervading near and far because it goes everywhere. The dharmakāya on the other hand is neither subtle nor gross, is not unique, is not near and is not far because it is not a possessor of said qualities and because it does not exist in a place.
Thus we see that the misconception that dharmakāya is an entity-like "possessor" of the qualities it entails is a mistaken view.

Dharmakāya is not an entity at all, as Sthiramati explains, entities in general are untenable:
  • The Buddha is the dharmakāya. Since the dharmakāya is emptiness, because there are not only no imputable personal entities in emptiness, there are also no imputable phenomenal entities, there are therefore no entities at all.
Dharmakāya should be understood as a quality, and not an entity, and it is for this reason that dharmakāya cannot be said to be one or many:
  • For 'not one, not many...' and so on, one and many means one and many i.e., both are nondual. Many means plural. Conventionally speaking 'I prostate' to that which is the dharmakāya, neither one nor many. If it is asked 'For what reason do we say though it is not one, it is also not many?' Due to that, since it is said 'non-arisen from the beginning', that which never arose from the beginning cannot have a phase of being one or many; like space, its nature is completely uninterrupted. Since all phenomena arise in the same way, therefore, what arises where? That which becomes a form of diversity is not seen by anyone, i.e. just as grains of rice arise from rice seed, likewise, whatever arises from emptiness is not permanent nor annihilated. Why? Free of all concepts, the victors see that to be empty and illusory.
    - Siddha Nāgārjuna
Now, one may object, and state that the synonymous status of dharmakāya and emptiness would render dharmakāya an inert void, but this is also incorrect. As we can see from the Rig pa rang shar, emptiness is always accompanied with wisdom (i.e., pristine consciousness):
  • Since there is no cause for buddhahood in the beginning, in the end it cannot be created through a condition. Emptiness possesses a core of wisdom.
And the Kālacakra Root Tantra states the same:
  • Wisdom is merged into emptiness: uniform in taste, unchanging and permanent.
For this reason we should not associate dharmakāya with emptiness alone, but come to know that dharmakāya possesses a core of wisdom or pristine consciousness [jñāna], which is why dharmakāya and jñānakāya both representing buddhahood, are synonyms. Per Malcolm The Amnāyamañjarī, a commentary on the Saṃputa Tantra states:
  • The kāya of pristine consciousness [jñāna] is the dharmakāya.
Last edited by krodha on Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:41 am

Great stuff, thanks man.

The idea of the Dharma Kaya being a temporo spatial 'source' also ends up being absurd, as there is actually no coming, going, creation, destruction etc., those are just misapprehensions of relative appearances, that have no footing in emptiness. However, if one -does- fall into this notion of really existing chains of causation, one cannot have their shunyata cake and eat it too.
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by steveb1 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:02 am

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:30 am
Here is a collection of excerpts on dharmakāya I assembled some time ago. I wasn't going to post it because it is somewhat overkill, but so far in this thread the definition of dharmakāya has been a bit vague, and the following does help address some of the questions in the original post. Hopefully it helps someone:

Dharmakāya ultimately represents a lack of an intrinsic, or essential nature, specifically the mind's ultimate lack of substantiality, from the Ārya-trikāya-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra:
  • Son of a good family, meaning of the dharmakāya of the tathāgatas is the absence of intrinsic nature, like space.
What is an absence of intrinsic nature? It is emptiness:
  • By what reasoning can it be shown that sentient beings have Buddhanature? Because all sentient beings are pervaded by the emptiness of dharmakāya... 'all sentient beings are pervaded by the emptiness of dharmakāya' means that the ultimate Buddhahood is dharmakāya, dharmakāya is all-pervading emptiness, and emptiness pervades all sentient beings.
    -- Gampopa
Thus we can see that dharmakāya can be said to be synonymous with emptiness, however the dharmakāya is specifically the total realization of emptiness at the time of the result which dawns due to the accumulation of wisdom, which is why Gampopa states clearly that "ultimate buddhahood is dharmakāya". In this respect we come to understand that buddhanature [tathāgatagarbha], dharmakāya and emptiness are not different, and that dharmakāya is released from the obscuring factors that render it "tathāgatagarbha" once the total realization of emptiness occurs, as delineated in the Śrīmālādevī-siṃhanāda-sūtra:
  • In that respect, the dharmakāya of the tathāgatagarbha is definitely released from the sheath of afflictions. Bhagavān, the so called 'tathāgatagarbha' is tathāgata's wisdom of emptiness that cannot be seen by śravakas and pratyekabuddhas.
Huang bo elaborates on the synonymous nature of dharmakāya and emptiness:
  • Emptiness is the Buddha's dharmakāya, just as the dharmakāya is emptiness. People's usual understanding is that the dharmakāya pervades emptiness, and that it is contained in emptiness. However, this is erroneous, for we should understand that the dharmakāya is emptiness and that emptiness is the dharmakāya.

    If one thinks that emptiness is an entity and that this emptiness is separate from the dharmakāya or that there is a dharmakāya outside of emptiness, one is holding a wrong view. In the complete absence of views about emptiness, the true dharmakāya appears. Emptiness and dharmakāya are not different. The most important thing is your empty, cognizant mind. Its natural emptiness is dharmakāya, also called empty essence.
The Ārya-dharmasaṃgīti-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra continues on the synonymity of these principles:
  • Whoever seeks the dharmatā of phenomena, seeks emptiness. Whoever seeks emptiness, cannot be debated by anyone. Whoever cannot be debated by anyone, abides in the Dharma of a śramaṇa. However abides in the Dharma of a śramaṇa, they do not abide anywhere; whoever does not abide anywhere, they are uncontaminated with regard to objects. Whoever is uncontaminated with regard to objects, they are without faults. Whoever is without faults, they are the dharmakāya; whoever is the dharmakāya, they are a Tathāgata; whoever is the Tathāgata, they is said to be nondual; whoever is nondual, they do not abandon samsara and do not accomplish nirvana; in other words, they are shown to be totally free of all concepts. Bhagavan, this is the Dharmasaṃgīti.
Jamgon Kongtrul continues:
  • The concluding practice is the conviction that the ordinary mind that was from the beginning the unity of clarity and emptiness is itself the naturally arising three kayas - its emptiness is dharmakāya.
As does Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:
  • The great state of dharmakāya is space-like emptiness. The expression arising out of the state of primordial purity is a spontaneous presence which includes the two form kayas - saṃbhogakāya and nirmāṇakāya. ... What that means is our essence, which is a primordially pure emptiness, is dharmakāya.
And Sakya Pandita:
  • The body of wisdom is adorned with thirty-two major marks and eighty minor marks, and is the saṃbhogakāya. The nature of that existing as emptiness is the dharmakāya.
For these reasons, the notion that dharmakāya is an independently established, monolithic pleroma is an untenable position. Dharmakāya has no foundation, root or basis, as Jigme Lingpa elaborates:
  • I myself argue 'To comprehend the meaning of the non-arising baseless, rootless dharmakāya, although reaching and the way of reaching this present conclusion "Since I have no thesis, I alone am without a fault", as in the Prasanga Madhyamaka system, is not established by an intellectual consideration such as a belief to which one adheres, but is reached by seeing the meaning of ultimate reality of the natural great completion.'
The Kun tu bzang po thugs kyi me long continues in this theme:
  • This meaningful supreme wisdom kāya, ultimate, natureless [rang bzhin med], the state of the nonarising dharmakāya, the lamp of the teachings, the great light of the dharmakāya manifests to persons who are in accord with the meaning.
Therefore we should understand that the dharmakāya and the three kāyas in general, lack the self-nature that would be required to be an established ontological entity that could be synonymous with the Brahman of Vedanta, as communicated in the Platform Sutra:
  • As to the three bodies [kāyas], the pure dharmakāya is your nature, the perfect and complete saṃbhogakāya is your wisdom, and the thousand billion nirmāṇakāyas are your practices (i.e., saṃskāra, “mental activities”). To speak of the three bodies apart from the fundamental nature is called ‘having the bodies but being without wisdom.’ If you are enlightened to [the fact that] the three bodies have no self-natures [svabhāva], then you will understand the bodhi of the four wisdoms.
The essential nature [svabhāva] of dharmakāya is essencelessness or naturelessness [niḥsvabhāva], for truly established, i.e., "existent" svabhāvas are impossibilities. From Ārya Nāgārjuna:
  • Svabhāva is by definition the subject of contradictory ascriptions. If it exists, it must belong to an existent entity, which means that it must be conditioned, dependent on other entities, and possessed of causes. But a svabhāva is by definition unconditioned, not dependent on other entities, and not caused. Thus the existence of a svabhāva is impossible.
Chokyi Dragpa states clearly that dharmakāya is empty of any essence:
  • Empty in essence, expansive like space and free from the limits of conceptual elaboration, is the dharmakāya.
The Rig pa rang shar proclaims the same:
  • The essence of the dharmakāya is empty.
This means that the conflation of dharmakāya with something like the Brahman of Vedanta, a transpersonal, ontological, truly established ultimate, is unwarranted and misguided. The great Buddhist adept Bhāviveka, addresses this misconception in many of his expositions. This excerpt from his Tarkajvala is especially pertinent:
  • If it is asked what is difference between this dharmakāya and the paramātma [bdag pa dam pa] (synonymous with Brahman) asserted in such ways as nonconceptual, permanent and unchanging, that [paramātma] they explain as subtle because it possesses the quality of subtly, is explained as gross because it possesses the quality of grossness, as unique because it possess the quality of uniqueness and as pervading near and far because it goes everywhere. The dharmakāya on the other hand is neither subtle nor gross, is not unique, is not near and is not far because it is not a possessor of said qualities and because it does not exist in a place.
Thus we see that the misconception that dharmakāya is an entity-like "possessor" of the qualities it entails is a mistaken view.

Dharmakāya is not an entity at all, as Sthiramati explains, entities in general are untenable:
  • The Buddha is the dharmakāya. Since the dharmakāya is emptiness, because there are not only no imputable personal entities in emptiness, there are also no imputable phenomenal entities, there are therefore no entities at all.
Dharmakāya should be understood as a quality, and not an entity, and it is for this reason that dharmakāya cannot be said to be one or many:
  • For 'not one, not many...' and so on, one and many means one and many i.e., both are nondual. Many means plural. Conventionally speaking 'I prostate' to that which is the dharmakāya, neither one nor many. If it is asked 'For what reason do we say though it is not one, it is also not many?' Due to that, since it is said 'non-arisen from the beginning', that which never arose from the beginning cannot have a phase of being one or many; like space, its nature is completely uninterrupted. Since all phenomena arise in the same way, therefore, what arises where? That which becomes a form of diversity is not seen by anyone, i.e. just as grains of rice arise from rice seed, likewise, whatever arises from emptiness is not permanent nor annihilated. Why? Free of all concepts, the victors see that to be empty and illusory.
    - Siddha Nāgārjuna
Now, one may object, and state that the synonymous status of dharmakāya and emptiness would render dharmakāya an inert void, but this is also incorrect. As we can see from the Rig pa rang shar, emptiness is always accompanied with wisdom (i.e., pristine consciousness):
  • Since there is no cause for buddhahood in the beginning, in the end it cannot be created through a condition. Emptiness possesses a core of wisdom.
And the Kālacakra Root Tantra states the same:
  • Wisdom is merged into emptiness: uniform in taste, unchanging and permanent.
For this reason we should not associate dharmakāya with emptiness alone, but come to know that dharmakāya possesses a core of wisdom or pristine consciousness [jñāna], which is why dharmakāya and jñānakāya both representing buddhahood, are synonyms. Per Malcolm The Amnāyamañjarī, a commentary on the Saṃputa Tantra states:
  • The kāya of pristine consciousness [jñāna] is the dharmakāya.
Thanks very much, krodha, for this wealth of data.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:47 am

there is gravity and the laws of gravity..the law of gravity is not dharmakaya but the because there can be gravity ,is due to Dharmakaya .

All sorts of natural laws go into healing a cut in your skin...those forces that are put in play in order for the process to heal are not Dharmakaya but because we can observe this to happen is due to the Dharmakaya.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by steveb1 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:02 am

Minobu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:47 am
there is gravity and the laws of gravity..the law of gravity is not dharmakaya but the because there can be gravity ,is due to Dharmakaya .

All sorts of natural laws go into healing a cut in your skin...those forces that are put in play in order for the process to heal are not Dharmakaya but because we can observe this to happen is due to the Dharmakaya.
You've given me something new to think about on Dharmakaya - thanks.

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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:30 pm

steveb1 wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:02 am
Minobu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:47 am
there is gravity and the laws of gravity..the law of gravity is not dharmakaya but the because there can be gravity ,is due to Dharmakaya .

All sorts of natural laws go into healing a cut in your skin...those forces that are put in play in order for the process to heal are not Dharmakaya but because we can observe this to happen is due to the Dharmakaya.
You've given me something new to think about on Dharmakaya - thanks.
yeah well be careful..i'm not exactly enlightened and am only trying to point to something in a very street level term way...if you catch my drift.

the thing is Samsara is created due to Karma..karma forms it...Dharmakaya influences it so it turns into The Buddha's Land.
The Dharmakaya gives us a place where sentients can dwell and become enlightened. i talked of gravity and healing just to point to something that influences something for a reason filled with compassion and wisdom ...It's purpose is there in order to set sentients on the path...

this world is perfect for exercising the Buddha's wish for all sentient beings to be liberated. No buddha and it would be really weird...

again i'm just trying to figure it out myself...

waiting for ...
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:24 am

:popcorn:

steveb1
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by steveb1 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:01 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:30 pm
steveb1 wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:02 am
Minobu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:47 am
there is gravity and the laws of gravity..the law of gravity is not dharmakaya but the because there can be gravity ,is due to Dharmakaya .

All sorts of natural laws go into healing a cut in your skin...those forces that are put in play in order for the process to heal are not Dharmakaya but because we can observe this to happen is due to the Dharmakaya.
You've given me something new to think about on Dharmakaya - thanks.
yeah well be careful..i'm not exactly enlightened and am only trying to point to something in a very street level term way...if you catch my drift.

the thing is Samsara is created due to Karma..karma forms it...Dharmakaya influences it so it turns into The Buddha's Land.
The Dharmakaya gives us a place where sentients can dwell and become enlightened. i talked of gravity and healing just to point to something that influences something for a reason filled with compassion and wisdom ...It's purpose is there in order to set sentients on the path...

this world is perfect for exercising the Buddha's wish for all sentient beings to be liberated. No buddha and it would be really weird...

again i'm just trying to figure it out myself...

waiting for ...
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:24 am

:popcorn:
Thanks for the cautionary flag...okay, I'll take it with some grains of salt, and I'm still grateful to you for your contributions toward answering my OP.

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Minobu
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:08 pm

The point of sunyata is nothing can be inherent.
if it was there can never be change. and we all know change is evident.
Because of this ,the Buddha can use The Buddha's Dharmakaya Body to work , or influence samsara , whose nature in empty of inherent existance.
this is why Buddha can say this is the Buddha Land , for Buddha has been at this for a very very long time...all in the name of causing sentients to gain liberation

steveb1
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by steveb1 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:16 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:08 pm
The point of sunyata is nothing can be inherent.
if it was there can never be change. and we all know change is evident.
Because of this ,the Buddha can use The Buddha's Dharmakaya Body to work , or influence samsara , whose nature in empty of inherent existance.
this is why Buddha can say this is the Buddha Land , for Buddha has been at this for a very very long time...all in the name of causing sentients to gain liberation
Thanks for your comment on Sunyata - true, everything is impermanent but subject to the compassionate influence of the Dharmakaya Body...

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Grigoris
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:21 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:08 pm
The point of sunyata is nothing can be inherent.
Not even Tathagatagarbha?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Minobu
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:21 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:08 pm
The point of sunyata is nothing can be inherent.
Not even Tathagatagarbha?
Good question !
i wonder about that myself...
it's easy to look at a bowl or a table or anything so obviously samsaric and see the emptiness.
but unless we actually know and understand Tathagatagarbha how then can we see it for what it is said to be ...empty ???of inherency and yet it is all around us in all things????...probably due to Dharmakaya ???

empty is not some bad word here...it's a view is all...
i bet the verdict is out on that one Grigoris..some would say yes and others a most definite no.

ahhh so much to know eh !

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Minobu
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:21 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:08 pm
The point of sunyata is nothing can be inherent.
Not even Tathagatagarbha?
then of course there is an aspect that even Tathagatagarbha relies on many factors to exist eh.
is it one inherent "THING"?
or is it too a product of many factors in order to be or not to be...that is the question.

is it unborn then..something of itself...

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Grigoris
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:07 pm

In some traditions the terms Tahagatagarbha and Dharmakaya designate the same thing. Would that make the Dharmakaya inherent? :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Minobu
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Re: Dharmakaya in Mahayana

Post by Minobu » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:25 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:07 pm
In some traditions the terms Tahagatagarbha and Dharmakaya designate the same thing. Would that make the Dharmakaya inherent? :smile:
why would they designate them the same thing? Also on another note ,are they a thing?

that aside...
there is part of me that wants to say yes...

but then again nothing is inherent according to sunyata .sooooo....

keep in mind we are not saying "Nothingness" we are using the word empty to describe the absence of inherency.
existence and non existence are empty of inherency . so we can see the true nature of all .

so do we use the term to better understand the nature of Dharmakaya and Tathagatagarbha .

or because they are not a thing do we ignore the use of Sunyata studies in Their Case ...or do we just ignore the use of sunyata studies because to.

sorry for the degeneration of my grammar to..because to...any grade one school yard in English Canada you would hear the use of "because to "often .lol..it works for me. :tongue:

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