The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:21 pm

marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:39 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 pm
marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:09 pm


Would this be something you extrapolated on your own, or does the LS discuss four yanas?
No. This four yanāni business is wrong speech born of misunderstanding. The LS, like the Buddha, teaches a one vehicle path. Not two. Not three. Not four.
If the three are provisional, and one definitive in which you termed "Buddhayana," are you not proposing a fourth yana?
Nope. No fourth yāna. Neither is Queequeg, although it's not good to presume to speak for another person.

又言會三歸一.

"This is called taking the three and returning them to one." That is a paraphrase from Venerable Zhìyǐ. We are talking about two different interpretations of ekayāna at this point. The "one" is the three vehicles.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:40 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 pm
The LS, like the Buddha, teaches a one vehicle path. Not two. Not three. Not four.
This is highly debatable, which is why there is debate about it.
Well, what that "one" path is, is the debate, isn't it?

It seems clear that there's "one" though. Whatever it is. The LS seems to go far out of its way in Ch 2 to do so.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by DGA » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:11 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:45 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Mahayana (which is the same as Ekayana)
And therein lies the controverted point: is the Mahāyāna the ekayāna?

When I read the LS, I see three provisional paths outlined and one definitive path.

The three provisional paths being pratyayasaṃbodhiyāna, śrāvakayāna,& bodhisattvayāna. I see one definitive path: buddhayāna, the ekayāna, found in all three.

Is bodhisattvayāna provisional, I suppose, is the question at hand?
Yes, I understand the Mahayana to be the ekayana. In the last analysis, the two terms are fungible into each other.

I don't think that the ekayana is found in all three provisional paths so much as all three provisional paths are means to the end of leading beings to Mahayana and hence Buddhahood. Maybe that is a distinction without a difference.

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:26 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:45 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Mahayana (which is the same as Ekayana)
And therein lies the controverted point: is the Mahāyāna the ekayāna?

When I read the LS, I see three provisional paths outlined and one definitive path.

The three provisional paths being pratyayasaṃbodhiyāna, śrāvakayāna,& bodhisattvayāna. I see one definitive path: buddhayāna, the ekayāna, found in all three.

Is bodhisattvayāna provisional, I suppose, is the question at hand?
Yes, I understand the Mahayana to be the ekayana. In the last analysis, the two terms are fungible into each other.

I don't think that the ekayana is found in all three provisional paths so much as all three provisional paths are means to the end of leading beings to Mahayana and hence Buddhahood. Maybe that is a distinction without a difference.
Actually, if you follow Candra's logic, the one path is based on the fact that everyone realizes the dharmadhātu.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

marting
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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by marting » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:06 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:21 pm
marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:39 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 pm

No. This four yanāni business is wrong speech born of misunderstanding. The LS, like the Buddha, teaches a one vehicle path. Not two. Not three. Not four.
If the three are provisional, and one definitive in which you termed "Buddhayana," are you not proposing a fourth yana?
Nope. No fourth yāna. Neither is Queequeg, although it's not good to presume to speak for another person.

又言會三歸一.

"This is called taking the three and returning them to one." That is a paraphrase from Venerable Zhìyǐ. We are talking about two different interpretations of ekayāna at this point. The "one" is the three vehicles.
Ah, thanks. Do you understand this as the three paths eventually ending in Buddhahood, or something else?

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:09 am

DGA wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:45 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Mahayana (which is the same as Ekayana)
And therein lies the controverted point: is the Mahāyāna the ekayāna?

When I read the LS, I see three provisional paths outlined and one definitive path.

The three provisional paths being pratyayasaṃbodhiyāna, śrāvakayāna,& bodhisattvayāna. I see one definitive path: buddhayāna, the ekayāna, found in all three.

Is bodhisattvayāna provisional, I suppose, is the question at hand?
Yes, I understand the Mahayana to be the ekayana. In the last analysis, the two terms are fungible into each other.

I don't think that the ekayana is found in all three provisional paths so much as all three provisional paths are means to the end of leading beings to Mahayana and hence Buddhahood. Maybe that is a distinction without a difference.
In the LS Ch2, the activities of the Buddhas, in teaching, is described as in responce to the needs of sentient beings, and is described as the application of 3-way distinction in a 1-way vehicle for liberation, in a loose paraphrase obv.

When you read "applies distinctions to the ekayāna, preaching as though it were triyāna" (paraphrase of 於一乘道、  隨宜說三 @
[0017b18], Watson has: "apply distinctions to the one buddha vehicle and preach as though it were three")
, do you read this as "applies distinctions to the Great Vehicle, preaching as though it were three?"

If so, how is the Great Vehicle an example of an applied distinction on itself?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:15 am

Here is the way Ekayana is understood in East Asian Lotus Traditions - namely Tiantai, Tendai, Nichiren.

There is one vehicle - the Buddhayana. In response to the needs of the various beings, the Buddha, employing upaya, teaches the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. The Sravakayana is characterized by the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, etc. what we usually associate with Hinayana. The Pratyekabuddhayana is characterized by wisdom of pratityasamutpada, particularly through the teaching of the 12 linked chain of causation. The Bodhisattvayana is characterized by the teaching on the Six Paramita and the gradual path of 3 eons. None of these is a real path; all three of these are upaya. They, in themselves, do not lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. Only the Buddhayana leads to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. These three vehicles lead along the path, but only incompletely. And actually, the Buddhayana encompasses these teachings, without any caveat, but these teachings do not encompass the Buddhayana. Neither do these teachings necessarily encompass each other. For instance, in some interpretations of the Bodhisattvayana, Sravaka, Pratyekabuddha, and Icchantika are precluded from ever attaining Buddhahood. Hence, that form of the Bodhisattvayana is called a Separate or Distinct teaching. All paths eventually lead to the pure Buddhayana, meaning, at some point, beings are told that the path they tread is upaya and that what they have always already been treading was the Buddhayana. That the three are provisional, and only the Buddhayana is real. This is the teaching called the Lotus. It is taught from time time, but not all the time.

In the third chapter of the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha tells the famous parable of the burning house. In short, a father finds his children obliviously playing in a burning house. He tries to get them out by pointing out the danger, but they don't listen. He contrives to tell them that there are goat, deer and ox carts outside, and if they would only come outside he would give each their own cart. The children come running out, but there are no carts. The father is happy because his children are safe, but now the children are demanding the carts. The father is then so happy he gives all the children great ox carts far beyond anything they expected and they ride off into the sunset.

The three carts that are promised are the sravakayana, pratyekabuddhayana, and bodhisattvayana. They don't actually exist. But, if people undertake these paths, they will be delivered from the burning house. Once they're out, the Buddha gives them the Buddhayana which is far beyond what they could have hoped for.

“O Śāriputra! You should know that the buddhas, with the power of skillful means, teach the single buddha vehicle, dividing and teaching it as three.”

Several other parables convey similar messages - for instance the parable of the phantom city.

The real controversy is about whether the Bodhisattvayana and the Buddhayana are actually the same. Both are referred to as Mahayana. However, in what is called the Honmon, or original gate teachings, meaning the second half of the Lotus Sutra, there comes a point when the assembly of bodhisattvas that includes Maitreya, Manjusri, Avalokitesvara, etc. etc., Bodhisattvas that are on the path of the six paramita, are stumped by a myriad of bodhisattvas who erupt out of the ground and which the Buddha identifies as his disciples since his enlightenment. Maitreya and the assembly cannot understand this, describing it like a young man introducing an old man as his son. This indicates that the bodhisattva who are the foremost in the assembly actually are limited. These bodhisattvas until that point still believe that Shakyamuni first attained enlightenment in Gaya.

This is where the bodhisattvayana is demonstrated to be an incomplete path - even Maitreya who is supposed to be the next Buddha doesn't realize that the path he treads is so limited.

In the next Chapter, the Buddha explains his life span which is understood to be eternal, and that all beings, are on this Buddhayana whether they realize it or not, all destined for Buddhahood. The Bodhisattvas don't even know the full scope of this path, let alone sravaka or pratyekabuddha.

I am sure there will be disagreement and critique, moaning about "This is not how the Indians understand it!"

All well and good. There really is nothing to argue about. This is it. This is fact. This is what Ekayana and the Three Vehicles means in East Asian Lotus discourse. Whatever you think about it is opinion.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:26 pm
DGA wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:45 pm


And therein lies the controverted point: is the Mahāyāna the ekayāna?

When I read the LS, I see three provisional paths outlined and one definitive path.

The three provisional paths being pratyayasaṃbodhiyāna, śrāvakayāna,& bodhisattvayāna. I see one definitive path: buddhayāna, the ekayāna, found in all three.

Is bodhisattvayāna provisional, I suppose, is the question at hand?
Yes, I understand the Mahayana to be the ekayana. In the last analysis, the two terms are fungible into each other.

I don't think that the ekayana is found in all three provisional paths so much as all three provisional paths are means to the end of leading beings to Mahayana and hence Buddhahood. Maybe that is a distinction without a difference.
Actually, if you follow Candra's logic, the one path is based on the fact that everyone realizes the dharmadhātu.
I don't see much daylight between the position you are describing, Malcolm, and the Tientai position.

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:20 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:19 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:26 pm
DGA wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:11 pm


Yes, I understand the Mahayana to be the ekayana. In the last analysis, the two terms are fungible into each other.

I don't think that the ekayana is found in all three provisional paths so much as all three provisional paths are means to the end of leading beings to Mahayana and hence Buddhahood. Maybe that is a distinction without a difference.
Actually, if you follow Candra's logic, the one path is based on the fact that everyone realizes the dharmadhātu.
I don't see much daylight between the position you are describing, Malcolm, and the Tientai position.
The position is almost completely the same. I need to assemble some quotes but I see them as identical.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

marting
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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by marting » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:30 am

Thanks, Queequeg. :thumbsup:

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:40 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:20 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:19 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:26 pm


Actually, if you follow Candra's logic, the one path is based on the fact that everyone realizes the dharmadhātu.
I don't see much daylight between the position you are describing, Malcolm, and the Tientai position.
The position is almost completely the same. I need to assemble some quotes but I see them as identical.
An amusing image emerges:

Young Zhiyi reads Chandrakirti (in Kumarajiva's translation). He notices the passage Malcolm has referred to, including the reference to the Lotus Sutra.

Reflecting on this passage, he reflects on the significance of the Lotus Sutra (in Kumarajiva's translation) with regard to the various vehicles.

It's not difficult to envision this as the kernel for Zhiyi's thinking on ekayana, the five periods, the supremacy of the Lotus Sutra, and so on.

This is just speculation on my part. Some scholar with a serious interest in this topic could excavate it, though.

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:43 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:15 am
None of these is a real path; all three of these are upaya. They, in themselves, do not lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi.
This is a questionable assertion. While it may accurately represent what the schools you mention maintain, it is not an easily defensible assertion.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:43 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:15 am
None of these is a real path; all three of these are upaya. They, in themselves, do not lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi.
This is a questionable assertion. While it may accurately represent what the schools you mention maintain, it is not an easily defensible assertion.
I'd like to go back to Qq's assertions. There are two.

1. the three yanas are not real paths in themselves, but are instead upaya. Means to an end. Hold that thought.

2. in themselves, they do not lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi.

OK, if 1 is true, and I think it is, then you have to consider what the objective of that upaya may be. I think they are means to the end of bringing beings to the Mahayana, which does lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. This means the purpose and function of the three yanas is to lead beings to annuttarasamyaksambodhi.

To my mind, as of this moment, 2 must be false if 1 is true. All three lead to Mahayana and therefore to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. There's one Dharma path but different maps and landmarks, if that analogy makes sense.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Qq's post and Malcolm's objection to it.

If I'm mistaken, I invite the gallery to set me right.

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:44 am

DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:42 am
I think they are means to the end of bringing beings to the Mahayana, which does lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. This means the purpose and function of the three yanas is to lead beings to annuttarasamyaksambodhi.

To my mind, as of this moment, 2 must be false if 1 is true. All three lead to Mahayana and therefore to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. There's one Dharma path but different maps and landmarks, if that analogy makes sense.
How is the third vehicle, the bodhisattvayana, different from the Mahayana? From my reading of your comment, you seem to be asserting that these are two different yanas. No?

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:29 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:40 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:20 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:19 am


I don't see much daylight between the position you are describing, Malcolm, and the Tientai position.
The position is almost completely the same. I need to assemble some quotes but I see them as identical.
An amusing image emerges:

Young Zhiyi reads Chandrakirti (in Kumarajiva's translation). He notices the passage Malcolm has referred to, including the reference to the Lotus Sutra.

Reflecting on this passage, he reflects on the significance of the Lotus Sutra (in Kumarajiva's translation) with regard to the various vehicles.

It's not difficult to envision this as the kernel for Zhiyi's thinking on ekayana, the five periods, the supremacy of the Lotus Sutra, and so on.

This is just speculation on my part. Some scholar with a serious interest in this topic could excavate it, though.
Indeed. However Zhiyi could not have read Candra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:37 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:15 am
These bodhisattvas until that point still believe that Shakyamuni first attained enlightenment in Gaya.
No, they don't. Whatever gives you this idea?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:53 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:15 am
Here is the way Ekayana is understood in East Asian Lotus Traditions - namely Tiantai, Tendai, Nichiren.

There is one vehicle - the Buddhayana. In response to the needs of the various beings, the Buddha, employing upaya, teaches the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. The Sravakayana is characterized by the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, etc. what we usually associate with Hinayana. The Pratyekabuddhayana is characterized by wisdom of pratityasamutpada, particularly through the teaching of the 12 linked chain of causation. The Bodhisattvayana is characterized by the teaching on the Six Paramita and the gradual path of 3 eons. None of these is a real path; all three of these are upaya. They, in themselves, do not lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. Only the Buddhayana leads to annuttarasamyaksambodhi. These three vehicles lead along the path, but only incompletely. And actually, the Buddhayana encompasses these teachings, without any caveat, but these teachings do not encompass the Buddhayana. Neither do these teachings necessarily encompass each other. For instance, in some interpretations of the Bodhisattvayana, Sravaka, Pratyekabuddha, and Icchantika are precluded from ever attaining Buddhahood. Hence, that form of the Bodhisattvayana is called a Separate or Distinct teaching. All paths eventually lead to the pure Buddhayana, meaning, at some point, beings are told that the path they tread is upaya and that what they have always already been treading was the Buddhayana. That the three are provisional, and only the Buddhayana is real. This is the teaching called the Lotus. It is taught from time time, but not all the time.

In the third chapter of the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha tells the famous parable of the burning house. In short, a father finds his children obliviously playing in a burning house. He tries to get them out by pointing out the danger, but they don't listen. He contrives to tell them that there are goat, deer and ox carts outside, and if they would only come outside he would give each their own cart. The children come running out, but there are no carts. The father is happy because his children are safe, but now the children are demanding the carts. The father is then so happy he gives all the children great ox carts far beyond anything they expected and they ride off into the sunset.

The three carts that are promised are the sravakayana, pratyekabuddhayana, and bodhisattvayana. They don't actually exist. But, if people undertake these paths, they will be delivered from the burning house. Once they're out, the Buddha gives them the Buddhayana which is far beyond what they could have hoped for.

“O Śāriputra! You should know that the buddhas, with the power of skillful means, teach the single buddha vehicle, dividing and teaching it as three.”

Several other parables convey similar messages - for instance the parable of the phantom city.

The real controversy is about whether the Bodhisattvayana and the Buddhayana are actually the same. Both are referred to as Mahayana. However, in what is called the Honmon, or original gate teachings, meaning the second half of the Lotus Sutra, there comes a point when the assembly of bodhisattvas that includes Maitreya, Manjusri, Avalokitesvara, etc. etc., Bodhisattvas that are on the path of the six paramita, are stumped by a myriad of bodhisattvas who erupt out of the ground and which the Buddha identifies as his disciples since his enlightenment. Maitreya and the assembly cannot understand this, describing it like a young man introducing an old man as his son. This indicates that the bodhisattva who are the foremost in the assembly actually are limited. These bodhisattvas until that point still believe that Shakyamuni first attained enlightenment in Gaya.

This is where the bodhisattvayana is demonstrated to be an incomplete path - even Maitreya who is supposed to be the next Buddha doesn't realize that the path he treads is so limited.

In the next Chapter, the Buddha explains his life span which is understood to be eternal, and that all beings, are on this Buddhayana whether they realize it or not, all destined for Buddhahood. The Bodhisattvas don't even know the full scope of this path, let alone sravaka or pratyekabuddha.

I am sure there will be disagreement and critique, moaning about "This is not how the Indians understand it!"

All well and good. There really is nothing to argue about. This is it. This is fact. This is what Ekayana and the Three Vehicles means in East Asian Lotus discourse. Whatever you think about it is opinion.
This statement below is indefensible.
There is one vehicle - the Buddhayana. In response to the needs of the various beings, the Buddha, employing upaya, teaches the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. The Sravakayana is characterized by the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, etc. what we usually associate with Hinayana. The Pratyekabuddhayana is characterized by wisdom of pratityasamutpada, particularly through the teaching of the 12 linked chain of causation. The Bodhisattvayana is characterized by the teaching on the Six Paramita and the gradual path of 3 eons. None of these is a real path; all three of these are upaya. They, in themselves, do not lead to annuttarasamyaksambodhi.


And this can only be a rhetorical device at best
This is where the bodhisattvayana is demonstrated to be an incomplete path - even Maitreya who is supposed to be the next Buddha doesn't realize that the path he treads is so limited.
Maitreya, like Śākyamuni, is presently a nirmankāya, who will succeed Śākyamuni as the fifth in line of the 1002 buddhas of this fortunate eon. It is impossible for Maitreya to possess the ignorance you attribute to him. If Maitreya, a nirmankāya, possesses such ignorance, so does Śakyamuni, a nirmankāya. So that part of your narrative, friend is inconsistent. And save me the sermon about "The Buddha for this time and place." A nirmanak̄ya is a nirmanakāya is a nirmanakāya — they are either omniscient about the three times and everything in it, or they are not. Also, one can easily discover that Mañjuśrī attained full buddhahood countless eons ago, so claiming that he or any other bodhisattva belonging to the eight close sons, or even of the tenth bhumi were under the impression than Śākyamuni Buddha first attained buddhahood at Bodhgaya is totally ridiculous. It just means you ignore everything every other Mahāyāna sūtra has to say.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:29 am
Indeed. However Zhiyi could not have read Candra.
How so?

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Malcolm
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Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:29 am
Indeed. However Zhiyi could not have read Candra.
How so?
Candra lived in the 9th century.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9326
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: The Mahayana Is Not Diluted Theravada.

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:29 am
Indeed. However Zhiyi could not have read Candra.
How so?
Candra lived in the 9th century.
Well, there's that.

I'd thought he was a closer contemporary to Aryadeva.

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