escape from samsara

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clyde
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escape from samsara

Post by clyde » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:11 am

Supramundane asked;
Supramundane wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:12 am
One thing that never ceases to impress itself upon me is the inter-connectedness of Buddhist concepts, all seem to complement each other and fit together like pieces in a puzzle, especially in Mahayana: all beings are interconnected. Enlightenment of individual beings is in a sense interconnected through the mediating channels of the Bodhisattvas.

So am i taking things a step too far if i posit that rebirth is a type of interconnection?

interested to hear your comments.
Given the same premise of the inter-connectedness of Buddhist concepts, including Dependent Origination, my question is:

How is that there is any escape from samsara?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:00 am

My understanding of the Mahāyāna teaching, is that I don't think it's a matter of 'escaping' so much, as a matter of 'letting go'. The teaching is: when you seize or cling to saṃsāra, it is the source of suffering, when you release it, it's the source of joy.

In comments on The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way, Jay Garfield says:
Beings are inclined to grasp after Nirvāṇa – to reify it as a state and to crave it as a phenomenon inherently different from saṃsāra and as something highly desirable since it is characterised as liberation from suffering.

But this grasping onto the end of grasping is itself grasping!

According to Nāgārjuna, Nirvāṇa requires the complete cessation of grasping - including that onto Nirvāṇa itself.
"The unattainable is attained by non-attainment."

But it's also true that release is not at all simple as we're bound by deep conditioning and ingrained habitual attitudes extending back into beginningless time. So it takes continued and sustained effort, knowing all the while that there is nothing to be gained.

Hence, the saying from Suzuki Roshi:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:11 am

also, isn't there a Pema Chodron book called 'Wisdom of No Escape?' I haven't actually read it, but I think that's what it's about.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:33 am

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:11 am
Supramundane asked;
Supramundane wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:12 am
One thing that never ceases to impress itself upon me is the inter-connectedness of Buddhist concepts, all seem to complement each other and fit together like pieces in a puzzle, especially in Mahayana: all beings are interconnected. Enlightenment of individual beings is in a sense interconnected through the mediating channels of the Bodhisattvas.

So am i taking things a step too far if i posit that rebirth is a type of interconnection?

interested to hear your comments.
Given the same premise of the inter-connectedness of Buddhist concepts, including Dependent Origination, my question is:

How is that there is any escape from samsara?
Samsara isn't a place. Additionally, in the Mahayana teaching samsara and nirvana are inseparable.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Jesse » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:48 am

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:11 am
Supramundane asked;
Supramundane wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:12 am
One thing that never ceases to impress itself upon me is the inter-connectedness of Buddhist concepts, all seem to complement each other and fit together like pieces in a puzzle, especially in Mahayana: all beings are interconnected. Enlightenment of individual beings is in a sense interconnected through the mediating channels of the Bodhisattvas.

So am i taking things a step too far if i posit that rebirth is a type of interconnection?

interested to hear your comments.
Given the same premise of the inter-connectedness of Buddhist concepts, including Dependent Origination, my question is:

How is that there is any escape from samsara?
You should reach Thich Nhat Hahns teachings on interpenetration, interdependence.

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=5460
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Supramundane » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:40 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:00 am
My understanding of the Mahāyāna teaching, is that I don't think it's a matter of 'escaping' so much, as a matter of 'letting go'. The teaching is: when you seize or cling to saṃsāra, it is the source of suffering, when you release it, it's the source of joy.

In comments on The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way, Jay Garfield says:
Beings are inclined to grasp after Nirvāṇa – to reify it as a state and to crave it as a phenomenon inherently different from saṃsāra and as something highly desirable since it is characterised as liberation from suffering.

But this grasping onto the end of grasping is itself grasping!

According to Nāgārjuna, Nirvāṇa requires the complete cessation of grasping - including that onto Nirvāṇa itself.
"The unattainable is attained by non-attainment."

But it's also true that release is not at all simple as we're bound by deep conditioning and ingrained habitual attitudes extending back into beginningless time. So it takes continued and sustained effort, knowing all the while that there is nothing to be gained.

Hence, the saying from Suzuki Roshi:
well put as always, WF.

i think the Buddha himself commented that on the difficulty of explaining the nature of reality and wondered if it was possible to communicate his experience to others. Many Buddhist concepts, it seems to me, are overlapping and simply looking at the same thing from different angles, as if trying to overcome this very difficulty. This is why they say, "the 'map is not the territory': any explanation of reality that one gives is necessarily a summary, a snapshot, much like a map is only a representation and not the thing itself (it reminds me of the man who created a 1:1 map of the UK, but the farmers got very angry when he tried to spread it out).

Thus, for samsara, it is difficult to explain in words. any representation falls short. the key is that there is no escape. there is no portal to another realm. there is nothing but this moment here and now and nowhere else to go. we cannot escape Indra's net because it informs us.

but the good news is that samsara and nirvana are two sides of the same coin. Nirvana is nothing but the phenomenological world...

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by clyde » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:20 am

I get that awakening takes “continued and sustained effort” and the samsara and nirvana are inseparable. (And I have read some of Thich Nhat Hahns writings, including his commentary on the Heart Sutra, The Heart of Understanding, in which he lovingly describes “interbeing”.)

So I’ll rephrase the question this way:

Given the profoundness of interbeing, how is it possible that there is parinirvana, the escape from the round of becoming?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 am

I think the Buddhist answer would be - because the Buddha discovered that there is, and we're fortunate enough to have lived at a time when it was communicated by Him.
Supramundane wrote:Many Buddhist concepts, it seems to me, are overlapping and simply looking at the same thing from different angles.
Right! An essential and often over-looked aspect of Buddhist teaching. There's an element of perspective which is built in from the beginning - hence the Two Truths. There are mundane and ultimate perspectives, and things that may look one way from one perspective, may look different from the other. 'First, there is a mountain. Then there is no mountain. Then, there is.'

But I'm not so sure about the 'nothing but...' at the end of your post. Or rather, it is true that there is no separate realm apart from this one, but until we see the phenomenal realm as it truly is, then we're really not seeing it. So the good news is also bad news. Depending on how you look at it. :smile:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Vasana » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:25 am

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:20 am
I get that awakening takes “continued and sustained effort” and the samsara and nirvana are inseparable. (And I have read some of Thich Nhat Hahns writings, including his commentary on the Heart Sutra, The Heart of Understanding, in which he lovingly describes “interbeing”.)

So I’ll rephrase the question this way:

Given the profoundness of interbeing, how is it possible that there is parinirvana, the escape from the round of becoming?
"Becoming' and birth are links in the 12-fold chain of dependent origination. Ignorance is another link. With the cessation of ignorance, all of the other links are severed. It is because thing's are dependently co-produced that samsara and the cessation of nirvana are possible in the first place.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
In the Mahayana/ Bodhisattva-Yana, this one sided nirvana is not sought after and so the Mahayana fruit is a non-abiding nirvana; neither abiding in the extremes of a static nirvana nor abiding in the ignorance of samsara. To ordinary beings it would appear that a being is in samsara but a Bodhisattva isn't abiding in any of the 3 realms or the 6 lokas even while appearing in any of those 3 realms or the 6 lokas. The aspirations of Bodhisattvas and their insight into the
Ultimate meaning of all of the scriptures coupled /interconnected with the adventicious suffering of being enables their compassion to continuously manifest for suffering beings in the same way a mother comforts and wakes up a child having a dream of suffering. None of that waking activity is held to any more real than the child's bad dream and so bodhisattvas with insight have no cause for getting tired in their ceaseless actions. For them everywhere they go and everyone they meet is like walking from one beautiful flower garden to another.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by muni » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:25 am

Gratitude! :smile:

*** inseparable two truths *** ...which are not two. Language is limited, but to be able to use it to put a light on indescribable nature, is itself without words so to speak.
Look at the causative phenomena, one’s own body, possessions, surrounding people, friend, enemy, sense objects, forms, sounds, smells, taste, tangible objects – these causative phenomena, they’re impermanent nature. Not only changing day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, second by second – they’re changing even within every second. They are changing, decaying - do not last. They do not last even within a second because they are under the control of cause and conditions... https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/chapt ... uths-karma
...heart sutra:
"Shariputra, sons or daughters of good lineage who wish to practice the profound perfection of wisdom should view [phenomena] as follows. They should correctly and thoroughly view even these five aggregates as empty of inherent existence. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Emptiness is not other than form, form is not other than emptiness. Similarly, feelings, discrimination's, compositional factors, and consciousnesses are empty.

Shariputra, in that way all phenomena are empty- without characteristics, not produced, not ceasing, not defiled, not separated from defilement's, not decreasing, not increasing. Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness there are no forms, no feeling, no discrimination's, no compositional factors, no consciousness, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, no forms, no sounds, no odors, no tastes, no tangible objects, no phenomena. In emptiness there is no eye constituent through to no mental constituent and through to no mental consciousness constituent. In emptiness there is no ignorance and no extinguishment of ignorance through to no extinguishment of aging and death. Similarly, in emptiness there are no sufferings, sources, cessations, and paths, no exalted wisdom, no attainment, and also no non attainment.

*** Tadyata gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha ***
Beyond suffering is no location, may no suffering be. Beyond grasping/believing thoughts, or conditioned by thoughts, feelings...
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:32 am

Actually there’s a good modern saying about this topic, and something I have lived by for a long while now: ‘the only way out, is through’.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by muni » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:51 am

Emaho!


Nature may be compared to a vast ocean.
Thousands and millions of changes are taking place in it.
Crocodiles and fish are essentially of the same substance
as the water in which they live.

People are crowded together
with the myriad other things
in the Great Changingness,
and their nature is one with that
of all other natural things.

Knowing that I am of the same nature
as all other natural things,
I know that there is really no separate self,
no separate personality,
no absolute death
and no absolute life.

-Tsen Tang-Hsu
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:55 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:20 am
I get that awakening takes “continued and sustained effort” and the samsara and nirvana are inseparable. (And I have read some of Thich Nhat Hahns writings, including his commentary on the Heart Sutra, The Heart of Understanding, in which he lovingly describes “interbeing”.)

So I’ll rephrase the question this way:

Given the profoundness of interbeing, how is it possible that there is parinirvana, the escape from the round of becoming?
Sunyata, Emptiness is translated as Interbeing... think of it as "empty of a self-nature" TNH declares looking deeply at all "things" you see that they are made up entirely of "non-thing" elements.. great language if it points you in the direction...

samsara and nirvana are two sides of the coin just like being/non-being, emptiness/interbeing, yin/yang

everything everywhere is already completely emptiness, but since its empty, you dont see it

Nonetheless, the Mind can be Suffused with Emptiness, so whats that? Being suffused with something it already is?

The difference is Mindful Awareness, a razor sharpness, a complete wakefulness as one enters a calm thats unquenchable

its like the old thing about an Immovable Object and an Unstoppable Force, you look at the definitions of this a a child and ponder its meaning knowing it can't actually happen but in Buddha Mind there is no impossible. Everything is inexplicable paradox...

.. and if this doesn't help in any way , delete

:toilet:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by clyde » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:48 am

SunWuKong; I ‘get’ sunyata and the identity of samsara/nirvana. My question is different (and I apologize that I haven’t asked it well); that is, given all you say and all the Buddha taught, how is it that one can escape the round of becoming? It seems that even the Buddha, who was awakened, was subject to becoming until his death.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:39 am

clyde wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:48 am
SunWuKong; I ‘get’ sunyata and the identity of samsara/nirvana. My question is different (and I apologize that I haven’t asked it well); that is, given all you say and all the Buddha taught, how is it that one can escape the round of becoming? It seems that even the Buddha, who was awakened, was subject to becoming until his death.
Two basic explanations, roughly speaking the Theravada one which claims he was exhausting his Karma prior to parinirvana, and the more Mahayana one which (implicitly or explicitly) claims the Nirmanakaya of Shakyamuni was an appearance to teach sentient beings.
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Re: escape from samsara

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:16 am

More on Nirvana with and without remainder of fuel. (Wiki)
In the Buddhist tradition, a distinction is made between the extinguishing of the fires during life, and the final "blowing out" at the moment of death:[51]

Sa-upādisesa-nibbāna (Pali; Sanskrit sopadhiśeṣa-nirvāṇa), "nirvana with remainder", "nirvana with residue."[51] Nirvana is attained during one's life, when the fires are extinguished.[54] There is still the "residue" of the five skandhas, and a "residue of fuel", which however is not "burning".[51]Nirvana-in-this-life is believed to result in a transformed mind with qualities such as happiness,freedom of negative mental states,
peacefulness
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Re: escape from samsara

Post by muni » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:57 am

how is it that one can escape the round of becoming? It seems that even the Buddha, who was awakened, was subject to becoming until his death.
Purifying own perception while embracing all and all at the same time? Okay, sounds perhaps cliché. Shamatha-Vipashyana? Four Noble Truths....http://viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html

In some way Buddhism can give the idea because there is not nothing (nihilism) and so there is a personality with characteristics ( absolutism) as perhaps a Mahayana practitioner ( and so others are something else) and then holding on this makes an escape not possible I guess. Or at least "I" would not know how.
No any one is escaping anything. The idea of someone trying to escape the round of becoming by wonderful practice, may be 'temporary' okay but "the someone-personality' - that idea itself, is perhaps just another free ticket for another round? At least let it be a fruitful one for all and all.

What when Buddha experienced no identification with the changing play (like body but without rejecting anything) of changeless timeless Dharmata, changeless nature. Seeing so, he was not subject for decay or such experience was not, I guess.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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