What is reborn after death?

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Lotus891
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What is reborn after death?

Post by Lotus891 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:37 pm

Buddhism teaches us about Anatta. But what reborns then, if there is no Atta? Conciousness (vijñāna-skandha)?

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Re: What reborns after death?

Post by AlexanderS » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:38 pm

The delusion of an I

joy&peace
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Re: What reborns after death?

Post by joy&peace » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:42 pm

great question;
to consider the answer, nonduality and inter-being come into mind.. - one beautiful way to describe inter-being is like this; that a flower is composed of non-flower element... that is, a flower is the sun, the rain, the earth, and all other elements... it's empty of a separate self, it has no self separate from the world, from the universe.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:20 pm

Lotus891 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:37 pm
Buddhism teaches us about Anatta. But what is reborns then, if there is no Atta? Consciousness (vijñāna-skandha)?
There is no subject of experience that migrates from life to life. Rather, the processes that give rise to the sense of being a subject, continue to do so again and again.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:18 am

Moment of mind followed by moment of mind.
Each previous moment conditions the next

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:42 am

Of course alot of people will talk about the 8th consciousness

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Aemilius
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Aemilius » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:06 am

Being of the intermediate state is reborn. It is called "gandharva" or "gandhabba" in the Sravakayana sutras/suttas. It is mentioned in the sutras, but all of the early schools did not accept it.
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02 pm

Lotus891 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:37 pm
Buddhism teaches us about Anatta. But what reborns then, if there is no Atta? Conciousness (vijñāna-skandha)?

Tashi delek,

Anattā (Pali) or Anātman (Sanskrit), means there is no unchanging, permanent self, soul.

This body with karma mind is born of causes and accordingly is the result.

Look how your body and situation is, that was caused by former karma / deeds
Look what you are doing now,
That will cause a future body in a certain world

- To think that there is an unchanging self results in eternalism
- To think that there is nothing after death , results in nihilism
Both are called in Madyamika the death ends of a rope.

So what is reborn that is the outcome of positive as well negative karma, which is like a puzzle piece , it fits perfect to the new body and world.

What always will be there present, nevertheless where "we" are reborn is the Tathagatagarbha / Sugatagarbha / absolute Bodhicitta.

This is the real Self which has to be developed in Mahayana via the Bhumis and the relative Bodhicitta.

So if the actual karma mind will be disconnected from this body, it can dwell for some time in the situation called Bardo of Dying. This time can be long or short.

Then for the most they will experience a deep state of unconsciousness and immediately after this state, one is reborn in that world etc. based on previous karma.

One will see (if reborn as a human) the father and mother in sexual union.
Some will like the father and will be reborn as female
Some will be attracted to the mother and will be reborn as male

Then again, the cycle starts based on karma as long as the real Self is NOT experienced.
There is for the most no memory of the past bodies, only the one who attains Buddhahood can all the previous illusionary bodies "see".

The karma deeds are stored in the storehouse container the Alaya-vijnana and accompany the new body with its new identity. The new body contains then as mind that what is stored in the storehouse consciousness.


An example:

There are 2 entities standing before and behind a curtain
One is the mind of karma, the wrong self, which dies / is gone, when the body dies
The other one is the never born real Self / Buddha, which never dies because it was never born

The curtain is made of karma and illusions
The mind of karma in front of the curtain cannot see the real Self which dwells inherent in sentient beings and is on the other side of the curtain.

By methods the curtain of karma, becomes thinner and thinner
As soon as the curtain vanishes and the inherent dwelling Buddha / the real Self is seen
The wrong self or the ego vanishes as snow for the sun.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Lotus891 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:21 pm

I've learned that according to Buddhism, personality consists of five elements (Five skandhas). And that our life it is a set of moments. Nothing is permanent. But I still can't get one thing. For example, a person, because of disease will lose feelings, will he not be a person or personality? He will not have vedana. Or he could not have more than one skandha from birth, for example. Would you call him a non-personality? But, as for me, there is one permanent thing exist - it's what what we call "me" or "I". It's more than a mind, more than sensetives. It's something deeper. I wake up every morning in my body (rupa), not in the body (rupa) of my sister or brother, on a schoolmate, or a movie star. I am I. And I will be in this body till death. It's permament while I live. So what is it? Sixth skangha? Is it a dharma-element, that is always void from one birth to another? How can you explain this?

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Lotus891 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:37 pm

Misprint "fifth skangha". I meant is this a Conciousness that reborns (Vijñāna-skandha) and makes us feel every time in this body?

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:20 pm

Lotus891 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:21 pm
I've learned that according to Buddhism, personality consists of five elements (Five skandhas). And that our life it is a set of moments. Nothing is permanent. But I still can't get one thing. For example, a person, because of disease will lose feelings, will he not be a person or personality? He will not have vedana. Or he could not have more than one skandha from birth, for example. Would you call him a non-personality? But, as for me, there is one permanent thing exist - it's what what we call "me" or "I". It's more than a mind, more than sensetives. It's something deeper. I wake up every morning in my body (rupa), not in the body (rupa) of my sister or brother, on a schoolmate, or a movie star. I am I. And I will be in this body till death. It's permament while I live. So what is it? Sixth skangha? Is it a dharma-element, that is always void from one birth to another? How can you explain this?
You're asking a deep question, and one that needs a lot of study. But it is definitely the case that the Buddha rejects that there is a permanent self or soul that migrates from life to life. There is a sutta specifically about this point, called Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta which relates the story of Sāti the Fisherman's son. Sāti says that 'I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One such that it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another.' The monks take Sāti to the Buddha, who rebukes this view harshly:
[Sāti says, speaking to the Buddha]: 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."

"Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?" [asks the Buddha]

"This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions."

"And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'? But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."

Then the Blessed One said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Is this monk Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, even warm in this Dhamma & Vinaya?"

"How could he be, lord? No, lord."

When this was said, the monk Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, sat silent, abashed, his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words.
Lotus891 wrote: a person, because of disease will lose feelings, will he not be a person or personality?
Of course, he will be a person, the subject of experience. The point of the teaching of 'dependent origination' is not that subjects don't exist; it is that consciousness arises dependent on causes and conditions. Everything is subject to dependent origination and arises subject to causes and conditions; that doesn't mean, it doesn't exist, but that it doesn't exist apart from that. 'Although the Buddha taught that there is no permanent, eternal, immutable, independently-existing self (attā), he also taught that there is “action” or “doing”, and that it is therefore meaningful to speak of one who intends, initiates, sustains and completes actions and deeds, and who is therefore an ethically responsible and culpable being.' 2
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Lotus891 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:51 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:20 pm
Lotus891 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:21 pm
I've learned that according to Buddhism, personality consists of five elements (Five skandhas). And that our life it is a set of moments. Nothing is permanent. But I still can't get one thing. For example, a person, because of disease will lose feelings, will he not be a person or personality? He will not have vedana. Or he could not have more than one skandha from birth, for example. Would you call him a non-personality? But, as for me, there is one permanent thing exist - it's what what we call "me" or "I". It's more than a mind, more than sensetives. It's something deeper. I wake up every morning in my body (rupa), not in the body (rupa) of my sister or brother, on a schoolmate, or a movie star. I am I. And I will be in this body till death. It's permament while I live. So what is it? Sixth skangha? Is it a dharma-element, that is always void from one birth to another? How can you explain this?
You're asking a deep question, and one that needs a lot of study. But it is definitely the case that the Buddha rejects that there is a permanent self or soul that migrates from life to life. There is a sutta specifically about this point, called Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta which relates the story of Sāti the Fisherman's son. Sāti says that 'I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One such that it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another.' The monks take Sāti to the Buddha, who rebukes this view harshly:
[Sāti says, speaking to the Buddha]: 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."

"Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?" [asks the Buddha]

"This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions."

"And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'? But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."

Then the Blessed One said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Is this monk Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, even warm in this Dhamma & Vinaya?"

"How could he be, lord? No, lord."

When this was said, the monk Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, sat silent, abashed, his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words.
Lotus891 wrote: a person, because of disease will lose feelings, will he not be a person or personality?
Of course, he will be a person, the subject of experience. The point of the teaching of 'dependent origination' is not that subjects don't exist; it is that consciousness arises dependent on causes and conditions. Everything is subject to dependent origination and arises subject to causes and conditions; that doesn't mean, it doesn't exist, but that it doesn't exist apart from that. 'Although the Buddha taught that there is no permanent, eternal, immutable, independently-existing self (attā), he also taught that there is “action” or “doing”, and that it is therefore meaningful to speak of one who intends, initiates, sustains and completes actions and deeds, and who is therefore an ethically responsible and culpable being.' 2
That confuses me more. Maybe I am foolish, like Buddha said, but after reading that Sutta I've got another question, if there no "atta", no permanent consciousness, that reborns, so why do we need to reach Nibbana? Why do buddhists care about that? Why did Buddha teach that way? What's the point of that? I know that Nibbana frees us from Dukha, but if there is no selfness, what's the point in getting freedom of something that is not exist?

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:48 am

So you're asking, 'how does it benefit me?' That is indeed a good question to contemplate.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by DGA » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:16 am

Here's the old omnibus thread on rebirth. It's still worth reading.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Aemilius » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:33 am

Lotus891 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:21 pm
I've learned that according to Buddhism, personality consists of five elements (Five skandhas). And that our life it is a set of moments. Nothing is permanent. But I still can't get one thing. For example, a person, because of disease will lose feelings, will he not be a person or personality? He will not have vedana. Or he could not have more than one skandha from birth, for example. Would you call him a non-personality? But, as for me, there is one permanent thing exist - it's what what we call "me" or "I". It's more than a mind, more than sensetives. It's something deeper. I wake up every morning in my body (rupa), not in the body (rupa) of my sister or brother, on a schoolmate, or a movie star. I am I. And I will be in this body till death. It's permament while I live. So what is it? Sixth skangha? Is it a dharma-element, that is always void from one birth to another? How can you explain this?
The point in the teaching of the five skandhas is that you are not one, but you are five. Your mind projects a oneness, a unity, on the skandhas, which is not there. So it is an aspect of your mind that projects a person, a permanent entity, on the skandhas.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Seeker12 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:11 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:06 am
Being of the intermediate state is reborn. It is called "gandharva" or "gandhabba" in the Sravakayana sutras/suttas. It is mentioned in the sutras, but all of the early schools did not accept it.
Relevant discussion on Reddit on this topic. https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comme ... _research/

Excerpts:

"One of the most interesting bits to me is that Bhikkhu Analayo makes a strong case for the intermediate existence between rebirths existing in the Early Buddhist Texts, contrary to the traditional Theravadin view."

"From this we can conclude that the Buddha, following ideas current in his time – for Vacchagotta was a non-Buddhist wanderer (paribbājaka) – accepted that there was some kind of interval between one life and the next. During this time, when one has ‘laid down’ this body, but is not yet reborn in another, one is sustained by craving, like a flame tossed by the wind is sustained by air. The simile suggests, perhaps, that the interval is a short one; but the purpose of the simile is to illustrate the dependent nature of the period, not the length of time it takes. Here, as in the other contexts we shall examine below, it is not really possible to draw any conclusions about the length of time in the in-between state."
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

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Aemilius
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Aemilius » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:11 am

It has been pointed out before several times by many researchers, for example Sravasti Dhammika in Guide to Buddhism A2Z, Hirakawa Akira & Paul Groner in History of Buddhism from Shakyamuni to Early Mahayana, and Etienne Lamotte in History of Indian Buddhism.
In Sarvastivadin Abhidharma there is the case of a person attaining nirvana in the intermediate state, which is also mentioned by Sravasti Dhammika in his entry: the In-between State.
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:52 pm

A weird tension bubble between habits and stuff.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Red Spinifex » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:45 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:20 pm
Lotus891 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:37 pm
Buddhism teaches us about Anatta. But what is reborns then, if there is no Atta? Consciousness (vijñāna-skandha)?
There is no subject of experience that migrates from life to life. Rather, the processes that give rise to the sense of being a subject, continue to do so again and again.
That is likely the clearest and most sensible way of looking at it, in my opinion. If there is no entity in itself that transmigrates, the process or processes that give rise to the sense of an individual self continue to repeat themselves until the cycle of the process or processes is broken.

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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:09 am

Well high Red Spinifex :hi: ! Welcome to DharmaWheel.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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