Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

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Tenma
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Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Tenma »

So I looked through this sutra and would like to check if I interpreted it right.

So the whole point is to destroy all fallacies of purity, what's good and bad, and so forth, yet accept the life you have and perceive everything as pure, regardless? And destroy concepts of good and bad by seeing good as bad and bad as good(ex: hatred is good while kindness is evil)? Also, bodhisattvas are free of obscurations, but because of their strong vows, they remain in samsara to help each and every single being? Am I interpreting this correctly?
Natan
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Natan »

Tenma wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:13 pm So I looked through this sutra and would like to check if I interpreted it right.

So the whole point is to destroy all fallacies of purity, what's good and bad, and so forth, yet accept the life you have and perceive everything as pure, regardless? And destroy concepts of good and bad by seeing good as bad and bad as good(ex: hatred is good while kindness is evil)? Also, bodhisattvas are free of obscurations, but because of their strong vows, they remain in samsara to help each and every single being? Am I interpreting this correctly?
I’m not familiar. But it sounds wrong view. Good and bad are not fungible. Though, both are empty.
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Tenma
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Tenma »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Tenma wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:13 pm So I looked through this sutra and would like to check if I interpreted it right.

So the whole point is to destroy all fallacies of purity, what's good and bad, and so forth, yet accept the life you have and perceive everything as pure, regardless? And destroy concepts of good and bad by seeing good as bad and bad as good(ex: hatred is good while kindness is evil)? Also, bodhisattvas are free of obscurations, but because of their strong vows, they remain in samsara to help each and every single being? Am I interpreting this correctly?
I’m not familiar. But it sounds wrong view. Good and bad are not fungible. Though, both are empty.
So in other words, destroy all perceptions of good and bad and have no perception?
Natan
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Natan »

Tenma wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:26 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Tenma wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:13 pm So I looked through this sutra and would like to check if I interpreted it right.

So the whole point is to destroy all fallacies of purity, what's good and bad, and so forth, yet accept the life you have and perceive everything as pure, regardless? And destroy concepts of good and bad by seeing good as bad and bad as good(ex: hatred is good while kindness is evil)? Also, bodhisattvas are free of obscurations, but because of their strong vows, they remain in samsara to help each and every single being? Am I interpreting this correctly?
I’m not familiar. But it sounds wrong view. Good and bad are not fungible. Though, both are empty.
So in other words, destroy all perceptions of good and bad and have no perception?
No perception of a real good and bad. Direct perception of dharmata.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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Grigoris
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

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The Buddha is teaching about recognising the emptiness of all definitions and labels.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Tenma
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Tenma »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:18 pm The Buddha is teaching about recognising the emptiness of all definitions and labels.
So in other words, think nothing whatsoever nor have a perception/concept?
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Grigoris »

You have to remember that there are two truths.

So, on the one hand all phenomena are ultimately empty and thus lack inherent characteristics (good, bad, pure, impure, etc...).

At the same time phenomena have a relative truth so that one acts good and not bad, concerns themselves with purity and impurity.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Tenma
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Tenma »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:24 pm You have to remember that there are two truths.

So, on the one hand all phenomena are ultimately empty and thus lack inherent characteristics (good, bad, pure, impure, etc...).

At the same time phenomena have a relative truth so that one acts good and not bad, concerns themselves with purity and impurity.
So the sutra preaches the first one and sees the concept of the second's purity, etc. as delusional(like sticking to one precept may become very harmful such as to always tell the truth or to always never eat meat)?
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

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Tenma wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:28 pmSo the sutra preaches the first one and sees the concept of the second's purity, etc. as delusional(like sticking to one precept may become very harmful such as to always tell the truth or to always never eat meat)?
The Sutra says not to grasp at inherent qualities.

Good or bad...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Tenma
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Tenma »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:33 pm
Tenma wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:28 pmSo the sutra preaches the first one and sees the concept of the second's purity, etc. as delusional(like sticking to one precept may become very harmful such as to always tell the truth or to always never eat meat)?
The Sutra says not to grasp at inherent qualities.

Good or bad...
So how can we practice this?
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Grigoris »

Tenma wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:13 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:33 pmThe Sutra says not to grasp at inherent qualities.

Good or bad...
So how can we practice this?
By not grasping at phenomena as if they have inherent qualities.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Tenma
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Tenma »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:17 am
Tenma wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:13 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:33 pmThe Sutra says not to grasp at inherent qualities.

Good or bad...
So how can we practice this?
By not grasping at phenomena as if they have inherent qualities.
Could you give an example of when to practice this? I'm afraid incorporating this into daily life is rather...difficult.
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Bristollad »

One book I've seen on intergrating the notion of emptiness into everyday life is How to See Yourself as You Realy Are by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, edited by Jeffrey Hopkins. The title, cover and the blurb scream self-help book but really it's a workbook on emptiness and how that applies yourself, everyone and everything. On the experiential side, each chapter ends with meditation exercises to work on the material in that chapter.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

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Tenma wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:05 amCould you give an example of when to practice this? I'm afraid incorporating this into daily life is rather...difficult.
When somebody praises you, investigate the feeling of pride and it's source. When somebody insults you investigate the feeling of anger and it's source. In both instances find what is being praised and what is being insulted. Find it's essence.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Tenma
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Tenma »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:37 am
Tenma wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:05 amCould you give an example of when to practice this? I'm afraid incorporating this into daily life is rather...difficult.
When somebody praises you, investigate the feeling of pride and it's source. When somebody insults you investigate the feeling of anger and it's source. In both instances find what is being praised and what is being insulted. Find it's essence.
Ok, thanks! :good:
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by LolCat »

In Mingyur Rinpoche's Vajrayana Online program, we are currently going through a course on the view. These two books below are required reading and I have found them very helpful:
1. Contemplating Reality: A Practitioner's Guide to the View in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism - Andy Karr
2. Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness - Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche

Both of them start out with the view of the Shravaka schools and gradually introduce the view of the Mahayana. They don't do the work for you, just reading them isn't enough. You still need to contemplate in order to bring about understanding in your own mind and transfer it to daily life, but they are helpful in understanding what correct view actually is with reasoning and logic, so that you don't end up conceptualizing a wrong view in your head.
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Supramundane »

Tenma wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:05 am
Grigoris wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:17 am
Tenma wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:13 pm
So how can we practice this?
By not grasping at phenomena as if they have inherent qualities.
Could you give an example of when to practice this? I'm afraid incorporating this into daily life is rather...difficult.
To answer your very apt question, i believe there is a school of Tibetan Buddhism that regards all appearances, events, images around them, etc. as a delusion, a dream.

--- nothing but an ever-changing kaleidoscope that has no more significance or reality than the interplay of water on the waves. beautiful and compelling but ultimately, the images we see are but dancing rays of light and shadow that have no inherent reality. you may name a wave, even grow attached to it, but ultimately it had no inherent reality and slips back into the sea. full realization of the dream-like nature of reality allows one to grow detached from it and the hub-bub and drama of life around you become but background noise.

correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Grigoris »

Supramundane wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:17 am...i believe there is a school of Tibetan Buddhism that regards all appearances, events, images around them, etc. as a delusion, a dream.
All schools of Buddhism, not just "...a school Tibetan Buddhism".

Phena Sutta: Foam
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Supramundane
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Re: Understanding the Karmāvaranaviśuddhi Sutra....

Post by Supramundane »

to the extent that the Buddha is 'the Awakened One', yes you are right.

However, i was once told that a school of Tibetan Buddhism (Dzogchen?) pushes this concept even further, going so far as to say that even sensory perceptions of reality are a dream: not just 'empty' as per Nagarjuna, but nothing but an illusory dream.

I could be completely wrong, though. hearsay on my part.
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