The self and the Alayavijnana

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Agdistis
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The self and the Alayavijnana

Post by Agdistis » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:54 pm

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Con ... ayavijñāna
>The store-house consciousness accumulates all potential energy as seeds (bīja) for the mental (nāma) and physical (rūpa) manifestation of one's existence (nāmarūpa). It is the storehouse-consciousness which induces rebirth, causing the origination of a new existence.

>https://www.alanpeto.com/buddhism/under ... n-rebirth/
>Only the Alayavijnana (“Store Consciousness”) continues in the cycle of rebirth (last to leave your body, and first to arrive in the next body)

Does the Alayavijnana survive death? I included a diagram I drew to illustrate how I've understood this - am I confused?
IMG_0812.PNG
IMG_0812.PNG (50.12 KiB) Viewed 527 times
Also, if Bija form the 'fruits' which themselves form the Manas/Citta, Vijnana and Rupa of future lifes, than nirvana is where you prevent new seeds from germinating into 'fruits' which become the components of the new life?

Thus, nirvana is the only permanent state, because once those seeds have been removed, nothing exists to germinate into 'fruits' and thus induce craving which causes rebirth?

Also, wouldn't any desire form a Bija which 'fruits' into a manifestation of that desire? An example would be a personal hypothesis of mine - that men reincarnate as the women they lust for, and women reincarnate as the men they lust for. Yet, as soon as they incarnate as the object of their desire, they no longer want it and want their opposite - they want to be the opposite sex and so feel heterosexual desire for their old sex.

Another example would be someone born in Canada who dreamed of Florida being reincarnated as an American, and then hating the heat and wanting to live in Canada so he's reborn in Canada in his next life.

Thus, desire is just eternal, restless oscilation. Since self and non-self are non-dual, no oscilation is the same as oscilation, meaning there's nothing to stop. It's the self's clinging to one point in the oscilation which causes dukkha, and eventually you can reach a state where oscilation is identical to non-oscilation and the Alayavijnana is empty?

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Queequeg
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Re: The self and the Alayavijnana

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:36 am

Agdistis wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:54 pm
Does the Alayavijnana survive death? I included a diagram I drew to illustrate how I've understood this - am I confused?
IMG_0812.PNG
Thank you for bringing this up. I'm studying this now so welcome some discussion on this.

In my understanding, it may help to reconceptualize. Instead of making the body the point of reference, consider the Eighth Consciousness (alaya when impure, amala (and other names) when pure) as the point of reference. In that case, the body is a coarse outgrowth of sorts from the Eighth Consciousness. Think of a perennial plant, like a Lotus, that grows out of a root each season, flowers, decays. The Eighth Consciousness is like that root, our present forms like the plant and flower that grows out of the root, then decays.

Death then is something different from our rupa-centered perspective.
Also, if Bija form the 'fruits' which themselves form the Manas/Citta, Vijnana and Rupa of future lifes, than nirvana is where you prevent new seeds from germinating into 'fruits' which become the components of the new life?
I may be mistaken, but the critical change is in the 7th consciousness that relinquishes the view of self. When the view of self is relinquished, the seeds in the Eighth consciousness are no longer mistaken for self.

I'm not sure, but I think the impure seeds may continue but because they are no longer associated with the wrong view of self, they come and go and no longer take perfuming. I don't know if the seeds ever actually are eliminated but simply become inert.

Would be very interested in hearing feedback on that.

Thus, nirvana is the only permanent state, because once those seeds have been removed, nothing exists to germinate into 'fruits' and thus induce craving which causes rebirth?
Might just be a technicality, but saying "nothing exists" is a comparable mistake to saying "things exist". Existence and non-existence don't apply to Nirvana. It is simply thus... such...
Also, wouldn't any desire form a Bija which 'fruits' into a manifestation of that desire? An example would be a personal hypothesis of mine - that men reincarnate as the women they lust for, and women reincarnate as the men they lust for. Yet, as soon as they incarnate as the object of their desire, they no longer want it and want their opposite - they want to be the opposite sex and so feel heterosexual desire for their old sex.
I don't think its so binary... that's why they talk about perfuming. That's why practice is aimed at reforming habitual actions. Bija tend to similar bija in succession. I vaguely recall a story about a Tibetan teacher being concerned with someone's obsession with Volkswagon beetles because they might end up being reborn as beetles...
Thus, desire is just eternal, restless oscilation. Since self and non-self are non-dual, no oscilation is the same as oscilation, meaning there's nothing to stop. It's the self's clinging to one point in the oscilation which causes dukkha, and eventually you can reach a state where oscilation is identical to non-oscilation and the Alayavijnana is empty?
That I don't follow. Can you explain?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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jake
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Re: The self and the Alayavijnana

Post by jake » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:50 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:36 am
Thank you for bringing this up. I'm studying this now so welcome some discussion on this.
Apologies for the quick aside, but I'm curious and thought others might be as well. What are you using for study? I know of only a handful of texts on the topic. Would love additional leads :)

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Queequeg
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Re: The self and the Alayavijnana

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:47 pm

jake wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:50 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:36 am
Thank you for bringing this up. I'm studying this now so welcome some discussion on this.
Apologies for the quick aside, but I'm curious and thought others might be as well. What are you using for study? I know of only a handful of texts on the topic. Would love additional leads :)
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31611

Rather enjoying this text.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Agdistis
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Re: The self and the Alayavijnana

Post by Agdistis » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:45 am

>Thank you for bringing this up. I'm studying this now so welcome some discussion on this.
Excellent!
>In my understanding, it may help to reconceptualize. Instead of making the body the point of reference, consider the Eighth Consciousness (alaya when impure, amala (and other names) when pure) as the point of reference.
I'd considered that, but is the Alayavijnana singular or plural? I work best visually, so I'm imagining an Alayavijnana 'ocean' with one or more Bija and Lifes blooming from it?

Also, do multiple Bija 'grow into' a single Life, while other Bija grow into separate Lifes? Meaning, one Life can plant many seeds in the Alayavijnana, some of which are grouped into one set of 7 consciousnesses, while others are grouped into a different set? In other words, can one person 'split' into two or more people with shared karmic roots?
>The Eighth Consciousness is like that root, our present forms like the plant and flower that grows out of the root, then decays.
So, while the features registered as changing by the Alayavijnana (The impermanent 'self') are impermanent, the Alayavijnana is permanent?
>Death then is something different from our rupa-centered perspective
Death would therefore be the end of the Alayavijnana, rather than the Rupa?
>I don't think its so binary... that's why they talk about perfuming. That's why practice is aimed at reforming habitual actions. Bija tend to similar bija in succession.
Does that mean beings tend to be incarnated in similar circumstances continuously?
>I vaguely recall a story about a Tibetan teacher being concerned with someone's obsession with Volkswagon beetles because they might end up being reborn as beetles...
So obsession is a means of directing rebirth?
>That I don't follow. Can you explain?
That paragraph was based in part on misconceptions you addressed elsewhere in your post. But basically I was saying all desires are like heat and cold - too hot is uncomfortable, too cold is uncomfortable, and so is 'just right.'

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