Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present form?

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dzogchungpa
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Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present form?

Post by dzogchungpa »

[Mod-edit: Topic has been split from Is Theravada an inferior and selfish vehicle? ]
Malcolm wrote:... I prefer the traditional account of the rise of Mahāyāna. Given that this is a Mahāyāna forum, it is one that should receive the most respect.
OK, but as I tried to point out earlier, apparently in a way that displeased some mod, this is the Open Dharma forum i.e. the "only forum on Dharma Wheel in which all Mahayana teachings are open to challenge" so your point here is irrelevant.
Last edited by Ayu on Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Left another note. _()_
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Malcolm
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Re: Is Theravada an inferior and selfish vehicle?

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:... I prefer the traditional account of the rise of Mahāyāna. Given that this is a Mahāyāna forum, it is one that should receive the most respect.
OK, but as I tried to point out earlier, apparently in a way that displeased some mod, this is the Open Dharma forum i.e. the "only forum on Dharma Wheel in which all Mahayana teachings are open to challenge" so your point here is irrelevant.
Can you imagine the shit storm that would ensue if I took your attitude to Dhammawheel? As far as I know, Mahāyanīs do not pester Theravadins with the Mahāyāna POV there. Why should anti-Mahāyāna sentiments be left unchallenged here?

If this is the Open Dharma forum, than this means that it is entirely appropriate for me to post any and all sūtras where Buddha discusses the difference between Hinayāna and Mahāyāna (there are many), as well as any commentaries which are germane to the point.

Further, this agenda of this forum is unfair. The Dhamma Wheel Open Dhamma Forum simple states, "An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation."

Why should we experience the discrimination of having "The only forum on Dharma Wheel in which all Mahayana teachings are open to challenge. Discuss ‘hot topics’ such as rebirth, karma and differences between schools..."?

It is simply wrong.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:32 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Simon E.
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Re: Is Theravada an inferior and selfish vehicle?

Post by Simon E. »

Precisely.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Is Theravada an inferior and selfish vehicle?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:... I prefer the traditional account of the rise of Mahāyāna. Given that this is a Mahāyāna forum, it is one that should receive the most respect.
OK, but as I tried to point out earlier, apparently in a way that displeased some mod, this is the Open Dharma forum i.e. the "only forum on Dharma Wheel in which all Mahayana teachings are open to challenge" so your point here is irrelevant.
Can you imagine the shit storm that would ensue if I took your attitude to Dhammawheel? As far as I know, Mahāyanīs do not pester Theravadins with the Mahāyāna POV there. Why should anti-Mahāyāna sentiments be left unchallenged here?

If this is the Open Dharma forum, than this means that it is entirely appropriate for me to post any and all sūtras where Buddha discusses the difference between Hinayāna and Mahāyāna (there are many), as well as any commentaries which are germane to the point.
Please feel free to do so. All I am saying is that in the Open Dharma forum, saying you prefer the Mahayana POV is not much of an argument. Perhaps you object to the mere existence of such a subforum in a Mahayana forum, but that is a separate issue. As far as I can tell, the whole point of the Open Dharma forum is that it is open to other, possibly non-Mahayana, POVs, right?
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Malcolm
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Re: Is Theravada an inferior and selfish vehicle?

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote: Please feel free to do so. All I am saying is that in the Open Dharma forum, saying you prefer the Mahayana POV is not much of an argument. Perhaps you object to the mere existence of such a subforum in a Mahayana forum, but that is a separate issue. As far as I can tell, the whole point of the Open Dharma forum is that it is open to other, possibly non-Mahayana, POVs, right?
I have objected to this forum often to the staff.

The fact that this is a Mahāyāna forum means that Mahāyāna standards should dominate. Having Open Dharma forum here is akin to a Black Lives Matter forum having a special area for the KKK.
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Re: Is Theravada an inferior and selfish vehicle?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: Please feel free to do so. All I am saying is that in the Open Dharma forum, saying you prefer the Mahayana POV is not much of an argument. Perhaps you object to the mere existence of such a subforum in a Mahayana forum, but that is a separate issue. As far as I can tell, the whole point of the Open Dharma forum is that it is open to other, possibly non-Mahayana, POVs, right?
I have objected to this forum often to the staff.

The fact that this is a Mahāyāna forum means that Mahāyāna standards should dominate. Having Open Dharma forum here is akin to a Black Lives Matter forum having a special area for the KKK.
What does it mean for "Mahayana standards to dominate"? From my own perspective, the actual unique thing about this Open Dharma forum is that moderators won't delete or edit topics and comments that challenge the Mahayana or Buddhism in general. It's essentially supposed to be an area for discussion of Dharma where the moderators just let things be for the most part. If people want more protection from the moderators, then they can have conversations on any of the other forums. Is this unreasonable?
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Re: Is Theravada an inferior and selfish vehicle?

Post by Malcolm »

tomamundsen wrote: Is this unreasonable?
Yes, it is quite unreasonable to have a subforum in a Buddhist forum in which it is allowed for people to attack the very foundations of Buddhadharma, and secondly, in a Mahāyāna forum, to attack the foundation of Mahāyāna.

For example, Kim would like there to be some standard outside of Mahāyāna for Mahāyāna critiques of arhat path and so on. When evidence is provided from Mahāyāna Sūtras and treatises, it is dismissed as invalid. But this is quite ironic — here, in a Mahāyāna forum, evidence from Mahāyāna sūtras themselves are not counted as sufficient evidence for the Mahāyāna position. Amazing and disgusting.
Simon E.
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Simon E. »

it should close or be modified from its present form.
Or the whole forum should stop labelling itself as for discussion of The Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhadharma and simply become an open forum for the discussion of ' Buddhism '.

The present situation leaves the Vajrayana as an Aunt Sally.
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by kirtu »

Simon E. wrote: The present situation leaves the Vajrayana as an Aunt Sally.
What is that supposed to mean?

Kirt
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Simon E.
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Simon E. »

Its a perfectly common English idiom. I suggest that you google it.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Kim O'Hara »

This thread was split from the discussion of Theravada at my suggestion and as a member of the admin team I am more interested in hearing members' opinions than expounding (or defending) my own individual views; so I don't want to influence the discussion unduly by taking an active part in it.
However (you could see that coming, I guess :tongue: ) I would like to make some general points before stepping back and leaving you to say whatever you want to say.
1. There is no need whatsoever for any member to view Open Dharma unless they actively choose to do so, and even less need for them to participate in it.
2. That said, it is apparent from the stats on the Index page that a large number of members do value the forum.
3. The admin team did review both the existence and the guidelines for the forum quite recently and made them clearer but didn't change them in any substantive way.
4. One primary reason for retaining Open Dharma was precisely for discussing differences between schools - and not just Mahayana vis-a-vis Theravada, but Vajrayana vis-a-vis Pure Land, or Zen vis-a-vis Sufism, etc. For that discussion to be free, the guideline needed to be, as it is now, "... all Mahayana teachings are open to challenge." But that is quarantined from the rest of the board by the first half of that sentence, "The only forum on Dharma Wheel in which ..." (emphasis added).
5. Return to point (1) if (4) still bothers you.

It's not perfect, we know - but can you find a better system?
Over to you.


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Ayu
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Ayu »

kirtu wrote:
Simon E. wrote: The present situation leaves the Vajrayana as an Aunt Sally.
What is that supposed to mean?

Kirt
It is a :quoteunquote: very British :quoteunquote: idiom for someone who is the target of fun-attacks - if my dictionary and I understand it right: http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/Wurfbude.html

Anyhow, this sentence expresses a wrong understanding of the subforum "Open Dharma". It is just open for discussion, not for trolling, endless accusation and respectless speech.
Open Dharma is just a place where doubts are allowed to be expressed. This is not the same as deconstruction of Vajrayana.
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Simon E. »

It is not a British idiom uniquely Ayu. It is found across the English speaking world.

And there is no 'fun' implied necessarily..It means someone or something that has become a target for attack.

I am not suggesting that the Open Dharma subforum was consciously set up for that purpose.
I'm sure that it wasn't.

I am suggesting that this has become the reality a proportion of the time.

The Vajrayana makes certain claims for itself. It is perfectly legitimate to reject those claims. What is not legitimate is for those who are not Vajrayana students to reinvent the Vajrayana to ease their own dissonance.
To dilute the claims of the Vajrayana because its claims do not gel with a subjective model of ' Buddhism' that they have created in their own aspirational image.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Adamantine »

Ayu wrote: Open Dharma is just a place where doubts are allowed to be expressed. .
Maybe the language in the description could be less conflict-promoting then, and follow this type of description.

Like, "the only forum on Dharma wheel where differences between Mahayana schools can be freely discussed, and doubts expressed."

However I think doubts are expressed in plenty of other forums too. . and I do think it's still allowed. . :shrug:
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Dan74 »

I think it is incumbent for us if we take our vows seriously, to have a place where people are free to express their doubts about the Mahayana path, and where we can engage with them appropriately.

People come to this Forum with all sorts of backgrounds and motivations. Many are simply curious. Some are having doubts about the path their are practicing. As long as they are genuine and not trolling, there should be a space where they can ask questions, air their doubts and discuss Mahayana and Vajrayana related matters without the need to adhere to any orthodoxy.

I am surprised this is even under discussion. The vast majority of this Forum is devoted to exchanges relating to specific traditions as they are taught. One place is open for debate and challenge. Is this really a problem?

_/|\_
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Adamantine »

Dan74 wrote:I think it is incumbent for us if we take our vows seriously, to have a place where people are free to express their doubts about the Mahayana path, and where we can engage with them appropriately.

People come to this Forum with all sorts of backgrounds and motivations. Many are simply curious. Some are having doubts about the path their are practicing. As long as they are genuine and not trolling, there should be a space where they can ask questions, air their doubts and discuss Mahayana and Vajrayana related matters without the need to adhere to any orthodoxy.

I am surprised this is even under discussion. The vast majority of this Forum is devoted to exchanges relating to specific traditions as they are taught. One place is open for debate and challenge. Is this really a problem?

_/|\_
I was merely adding that the language "open to challenge" may promote trolling tendencies as opposed to "expressing doubts". Do we really want born again Christians coming here just to challenge Mahayana Buddhism and tell us it will send us to hell?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Simon E.
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Simon E. »

Put it this way.
A number of Vajrayana practitioners feel that the Vajrayana tradition is not represented in a balanced way on this forum.
That a number of people think that this is the case is I think self evident.
There is for instance a whole forum dedicated to the Vajrayana/Dzogchen which would not exist were it not for that perception. There would have been no need for it.

Now why would that be ? Why should that perception arise ?

It seems to me that there are several possibilities..

One is that the Vajrayana attracts the paranoid. Those who will go out of the way to feel offended.
I know for a fact that there are those who subscribe to that theory.
Another possibility is that the Vajrayana intrinsically by its very nature, cuts across the liberal agenda, an agenda which Vajra students may well share in general socio/economic terms, but not in terms of their understanding of Buddhadharma.
The Vajrayana is posited on authority. On revelation. On the given and traditional. It values continuity and sees innovation as ego driven.
Now leaving myself out of the picture I don't think that the majority of Vajra students have a persecution complex.
I think that their perceptions have a basis in reality.
I think that the Vajrayana poses a genuine dilemma to those who embrace liberal values and assume that those values can provide a universal critique of all human interaction..including a system that actually transcends those values.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Malcolm »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
1. There is no need whatsoever for any member to view Open Dharma unless they actively choose to do so, and even less need for them to participate in it.
I have explained to you before that avoiding forums is not the way to go.
2. That said, it is apparent from the stats on the Index page that a large number of members do value the forum.
No, it merely draws a high number of views because it is the forum in which there are the most controversies.
3. The admin team did review both the existence and the guidelines for the forum quite recently and made them clearer but didn't change them in any substantive way.
As I pointed out, the language you chose ENCOURAGES CRITICISM OF THE DHARMA.
4. One primary reason for retaining Open Dharma was precisely for discussing differences between schools - and not just Mahayana vis-a-vis Theravada, but Vajrayana vis-a-vis Pure Land, or Zen vis-a-vis Sufism, etc. For that discussion to be free, the guideline needed to be, as it is now, "... all Mahayana teachings are open to challenge." But that is quarantined from the rest of the board by the first half of that sentence, "The only forum on Dharma Wheel in which ..." (emphasis added).
Only a non-Mahāyāni would have written the rules of this subforum in this way. Why would we, as a Mahāyāna forum, wish to encourage a subforum where people can engage in the unmeritorious activity of criticizing Mahāyāna Dharma?
5. Return to point (1) if (4) still bothers you.
This not the same as for example, avoiding going to white power forums, etc. Here, you are permitting a level of prejudice and polemics that is not tolerated on Dhamma Wheel.

In short, the principles of this "open dharma" subforum are neither open nor Dharmic. It is an embarrassment.
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Re: Should the Open Dharma forum continue in its present for

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote:Why would we, as a Mahāyāna forum, wish to encourage a subforum where people can engage in the unmeritorious activity of criticizing Mahāyāna Dharma?
People have questions whether they can post it or not. They also have disagreements to various degrees. Since the sections for specific traditions are meant to accept and maintain the given school's tenets - that is, as I imagine it, in a discussion those are the sources that take primacy over other. Therefore, Open Dharma means that no source whatsoever have primacy. Although in a way that is a straight way to chaos and confusion, it could also mean a 'pure reason' arena, where only the very basics of perception and logic counts. Except that very few, if any, can uphold such argument rules. Still, we can try.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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