Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

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Myoho-Nameless
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Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:45 pm

I recently had a post deleted were I sarcastically called someone dumb. Which is fine. I get that sarcasm is tough to convey over text. However, sarcasm or no, I have seen posts calling large groups of people some disparaging description of "below average or expected intelligence", including Americans, men, and women. And (though I haven't checked in a while, as my personal preferences would actually be for LESS zealous modding) those posts remain up. It could be argued that what I said was different as it specifically targeted a specific person (a "friend" mind you) and not a whole group. Maybe thats a rule, if it is, thats "dumb". but ok, whatever I don't make the rules here. But something else:

Cussing. I have had quite a few posts deleted or modified because of cussing. Which I won't argue against, thems the rules (least last time I checked them). I have also seen post containing profanity stay up for a while, and presumably remain up, unmodified. I have even seen mods themselves use profanity.

As previously stated, I would actually say the modding here is over zealous (the Nichien clique once had a self described atheist and thus a heathen push for more tone policing, which was just so rich). But thats not my gripe. I am asking for an attempt at least to be more consistent. You guys seem to have a severe hyper-fixation on the rule pertaining to dramawheel not becoming a "comparative religion" site. That seriously never EVER escapes your mighty wrath. About as ravenous as attempts to make sure threads stay on topic.


If these things that I have seen slip past are indeed being dealt with and I was just too lazy to check, I take this back.
Last edited by Ayu on Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:04 pm

If these things that I have seen slip past are indeed being dealt with and I was just too lazy to check, I take this back.
There are always, perpetually people who get moderated on one side calling for less moderation, an on the other, people who claim the forum is free reign for mean thugs to be mean. Been that way as long as I've used the forum.

Your description of how moderation is weighted is actually just a snapshot, from your particular PoV at the moment. Over time if you do the job here, you realize that 1) there are lots, and lots and lots of posts that will never get moderated, even when they should (impossible to avoid), 2) the best you can do is aim for consistency in the hotspots, realizing that "consistency" in a situation like this is really such an abstraction that it's nearly meaningless.

Seriously, if a piece of moderation is downright bad or offensive, you should PM a mod or do the appeal procedure, especially for something like misunderstood sarcasm.. over-generalized statements about 'what moderation is like" as a mod are hard to take any action on, for the reasons above.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:36 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Seriously, if a piece of moderation is downright bad or offensive, you should PM a mod or do the appeal procedure, especially for something like misunderstood sarcasm.. over-generalized statements about 'what moderation is like" as a mod are hard to take any action on, for the reasons above.
Yes, exactly. Thanks, Johnny.

And if you see a topic or comment that hasn't been moderated that you think should be moderated, please click the "Report" button. We moderators may not necessarily have read these comments that you found offensive. We don't have time to read everything on Dharma Wheel, either. So, it really helps a lot when we get reports from users here.

Thanks
:namaste:

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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by boda » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:20 pm

I've noticed a lack of consistency also. I won't go into it but the gist is that some members (of the same mindset) can say more than others. I suppose this can't be helped. That's just the way people normally behave.

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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:32 pm

boda wrote:I've noticed a lack of consistency also. I won't go into it but the gist is that some members (of the same mindset) can say more than others. I suppose this can't be helped. That's just the way people normally behave.
The idea that you are so important that it is worth someone's time to "censor" you based on ideology is something I've noticed consistently from the userbase here, and other forums. In isolated cases it's valid, mostly though, it's just an illusion. Amusingly, the complaints on things being ideological here come from across the spectrum. So some people claim undue deference is paid to a traditional point of view, others claim the site promotes modernism. Both are really projections of what actually goes on, with little to no bearing on the nuts and bolts of things.

It's similar to when little kids say something is "unfair" when what they are actually experiencing is jealousy, not a concern for fairness - which would actually be centered on a broader view encompassing the needs of others, rather than their own experiences, and their feelings about those experiences.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Queequeg
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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Queequeg » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:43 pm

I'll go ahead and raise my hand as a bad mod. I've described Americans as stupid and cursed. And those are only offenses in my recent memory...

I'll try to police myself...

That said, please feel free to communicate with the mods... having recently joined the ranks, I am deeply impressed with how sincerely the folks whose names appear in green, red and purple take their responsibilities. Even if you feel that one or another mod won't give you a fair shake, try one of the others. Your concerns will get fair attention.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

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There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:49 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
boda wrote:I've noticed a lack of consistency also. I won't go into it but the gist is that some members (of the same mindset) can say more than others. I suppose this can't be helped. That's just the way people normally behave.
Weren't you permanently banned at some point? And yet here you are posting. Not only posting but complaining too... :alien:

it's amazing the number of people on this site who make dupe accounts just so they can come here, perpetually complain about it, and worry about problems with moderation.

Guess they are just deeply altruistic ;)
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by boda » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:52 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
boda wrote:I've noticed a lack of consistency also. I won't go into it but the gist is that some members (of the same mindset) can say more than others. I suppose this can't be helped. That's just the way people normally behave.
The idea that you are so important that it is worth someone's time to "censor" you based on ideology is something I've noticed consistently from the userbase here, and other forums. In isolated cases it's valid, mostly though, it's just an illusion. Amusingly, the complaints on things being ideological here come from across the spectrum. So some people claim undue deference is paid to a traditional point of view, others claim the site promotes modernism. Both are really projections of what actually goes on, with little to no bearing on the nuts and bolts of things.

It's similar to when little kids say something is "unfair" when what they are actually experiencing is jealousy, not a concern for fairness - which would actually be centered on a broader view encompassing the needs of others, rather than their own experiences, and their feelings about those experiences.
I admit that I'm jealous of your ability to say what I am not permitted to say. But it's no big deal, this is just an internet discussion forum.

And I don't claim to be "censored." Indeed that implies a seriousness that is absolutely not the case here. It also implies behavior that is conscious and intentional. I'm supporting Myoho-Nameless' suggestion because I believe this behavior is unconscious and bringing it to light may bring improvement.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:56 pm

I admit that I'm jealous of your ability to say what I am not permitted to say. But it's no big deal, this is just an internet discussion forum.
Are you under the impression I've never been moderated? Not only have I been, but I've been moderated multiple times while I was a mod.

What do I say that you are not allowed to say? You''re here after knowingly creating a dupe account following a ban, and generally get to say what you please within the ToS. You use the opportunity in large part to nitpick and create circular conversations - that's why you find yourself modded a lot. if that's your inclination, you certainly get to engage in it though.

From my PoV if anything that is pretty lenient, which works out to your benefit, providing you get anything out of being here.

Every time there is a thread like this, all it is is a place for people who have magnified their own personal situation to "mean something" with regard to DW. It usually doesn't. So if individual acts of moderation are actually *wrong* (which happens) the easiest way to deal with it is by the appeals process, or by PMing someone, not by having some abstract, meandering conversation about what you claim are DW's problems. Like I said, every user has an opinion on that, and there is no way to please the opposite ends of a spectrum.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by boda » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:07 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've been moderated multiple times while I was a mod.
Then you more than most should realize how easy it is to form bad habits as a moderator, and should appreciate any suggestions to help form better habits.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:12 pm

boda wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've been moderated multiple times while I was a mod.
Then you more than most should realize how easy it is to form bad habits as a moderator, and should appreciate any suggestions to help form better habits.
Most people who spend much time complaining do so because they are wrapped up in their own personal narratives about DW at the time, IMO. That's not to say there aren't issues, there are - perpetually. A thread like this though is actually more about someone's feelings about a specific event or series of events, and generally accomplishes very little, because it is this sort of generalized complaint based on bad feelings and their accompanying tunnel vision that it is impossible to address.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by boda » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:43 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:there are ["issues"] - perpetually.
Presumably, the suggestions box is designed to help with these perpetual issues. But maybe it isn't designed for that purpose, I don't know.
A thread like this though is actually more about someone's feelings about a specific event or series of events, and generally accomplishes very little, because it is this sort of generalized complaint based on bad feelings and their accompanying tunnel vision that it is impossible to address.
I'm surprised that this needs clarification. If someone perceives a problem and makes a suggestion for improvement, the receiver of the suggestion can either ignore the suggestion or take it into consideration. That's how you address such things. It's not impossible.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:12 pm

boda wrote: Presumably, the suggestions box is designed to help with these perpetual issues. But maybe it isn't designed for that purpose, I don't know.
It is, but there are no real suggestions in this thread.


I'm surprised that this needs clarification. If someone perceives a problem and makes a suggestion for improvement, the receiver of the suggestion can either ignore the suggestion or take it into consideration. That's how you address such things. It's not impossible.
It's possible when someone makes a valid suggestion, which is not based simply on a very narrow view of a disliked event.

Really part of the issue here is that people assume their own narrow use of the forum and their own experiences indicate a problem or a trend. Occasionally they it does, but usually it's simply the result of confusing a narrow band of personal experience for something larger.

There is always a whole mod team that not only deals with these things, but likely has a broader view of what goes on than users, simply due to having to deal with this stuff all the time.

If you want to address it, then specifics are needed, these kinds of generalized complaints as I said literally mean nothing in the context of moderation. They are background noise which can't even be acted on - that is why PM's and the appeals process are generally better ways to get heard if you feel you have legitimate gripes about mod actions.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by boda » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:26 pm

I'm surprised that I need to clarify further.

If someone believes that a suggestion is invalid they are free to ignore it. Actually they are free to ignore it regardless.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by narhwal90 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:55 pm

Its funny how moderator issues are so similar everywhere. I moderate a subgroup on a machinist forum, complaints there are pretty much a mirror of those here. With my moderator hat on, this forum seems closely but in general not excessively moderated. Which doesn't mean the moderation is always right; sometimes there is no right choice about it; and the least worst action is to act anyway so the moderation process can be seen to work. The problem posters tend to disappear after a while, there will be some who nurse grudges about what seems to them as unfair moderation (which might be the case sometimes), most users just get on with using the forum and occasionally tripping up on a topic. The easy topics are where the discussion deteriorates and the thread can be locked or deleted. The tough ones are where you have to selectively delete/move posts- worst of all those that are pertinent but have some relevant and useful content and you have to go editing. Moderation on the basis of language is easy to get wrong, particularly when the mod comes across an involved thread with lots of problems.

The board policy on the machinist group I moderate is quite strict- I cannot ban users but there are proscribed topics. Discussion about religion or politics is grounds for the posts and possibly the thread being instantly deleted. WW2 is a particularly troublesome topic; there is often a very narrow line between discussing machinery of the period, including weapons & the production thereof and descent into politics, tactics and sentimentalism/nationalism. Unfortunately many relevant topics are locked because that line is crossed and it can happen quickly.

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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:21 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Seriously, if a piece of moderation is downright bad or offensive, you should PM a mod or do the appeal procedure
Actually I tend to agree that when my posts are modified it conforms to a consistent set of rules and expectations, usually. When I saw a mod use profanity however, that sat in my mind for a while.

I wanted to suggest more be done to be consistent with rule enforcement, not less modding. much as that would be welcome from my POV, its a seperate discussion, though if it would help by all means let people use some amount of profanity. I expected some form of "if you had this job you would know how difficult this is" to be brought up. The reason I would turn the "job" down is I know I would be crap at it. Basically, "if you don't like your job, quit" :tongue:

"hey I am only human" does not mean things are not still held to a standard. Or that, as I did bringing this up. people aren't going to call you out on your lack of consistency and just ask you to be more mindful. I don't expect a rule change, or perfect 100% enforcement. Someone had to say something. and its REALLY not in MY nature to do so.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
it's amazing the number of people on this site who make dupe accounts
come to think of it, I thought that was against the rules too....
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:36 am

tomamundsen wrote:
And if you see a topic or comment that hasn't been moderated that you think should be moderated, please click the "Report" button. We moderators may not necessarily have read these comments that you found offensive.
I appreciate that we peasants could help. I understand that. yes.

But I am a total hippopotamocrite in that, actually, I don't WANT my own offense to "censor" anyone, I have been on both sides of that and I don't have fond memories. If I was on the receiving end of a personal attack, I know that it would probably be modified even though I would rather they weren't. There are some members here whom I never pay attention to anything they say, even if its to me, because I just find them severely disagreeable. I am not really "offended" so much as I want to call attention to something that, far as I saw, was not being called to attention.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:27 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote: the easiest way to deal with it is by the appeals process, or by PMing someone, not by having some abstract, meandering conversation about what you claim are DW's problems.
There is not a single comment that I made that was removed or modified that I would waste a single calorie trying to get it put back to the way it was. More often than not, I deserved it, or its an error of communication, or human error. The latter two I just tend to take responsibility for and let it pass, knowing my intentions were not to hurt anyone. Thus, I have nothing to appeal. Believe it or not, no, this was not brought up just because of recent events. I accept that my post being deleted was because of human error and the last thing I want to do is make that particular person, they know who they are, feel bad because of something I said. This has been something I have been thinking about posting for several months now.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

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Re: Please me more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Kim O'Hara » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:40 am

Myoho-Nameless wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
And if you see a topic or comment that hasn't been moderated that you think should be moderated, please click the "Report" button. We moderators may not necessarily have read these comments that you found offensive.
I appreciate that we peasants could help. I understand that. yes.

But I am a total hippopotamocrite in that, actually, I don't WANT my own offense to "censor" anyone, I have been on both sides of that and I don't have fond memories. If I was on the receiving end of a personal attack, I know that it would probably be modified even though I would rather they weren't. There are some members here whom I never pay attention to anything they say, even if its to me, because I just find them severely disagreeable. I am not really "offended" so much as I want to call attention to something that, far as I saw, was not being called to attention.
You have just reminded me - not in a bad way! - of another reason we moderate posts: to keep the whole place more pleasant for everyone. It's not just about the person who is attacked and might be hurt, or the person who did the attacking and might need help, but innocent bystanders whose productive conversations are interrupted or dragged OT by personal squabbles.
And that, in turn, can be another reason for not moderating some posts and some people, odd as that may sound. Sometimes we know that the participants understand each other really well and don't need to be particularly tactful with each other. Sometimes we know that a participant has a heart of pure gold but no people skills to speak of, and rely on members accepting his flaws and respecting his virtues.
"One size fits all" does not work and couldn't work, even if we had five times as many mods and could spend months training them. Reality is messy, and we just have to live with it.

:namaste:
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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:35 am

Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: the easiest way to deal with it is by the appeals process, or by PMing someone, not by having some abstract, meandering conversation about what you claim are DW's problems.
There is not a single comment that I made that was removed or modified that I would waste a single calorie trying to get it put back to the way it was. More often than not, I deserved it, or its an error of communication, or human error. The latter two I just tend to take responsibility for and let it pass, knowing my intentions were not to hurt anyone. Thus, I have nothing to appeal. Believe it or not, no, this was not brought up just because of recent events. I accept that my post being deleted was because of human error and the last thing I want to do is make that particular person, they know who they are, feel bad because of something I said. This has been something I have been thinking about posting for several months now.

Fair enough. I also know you as a sharp poster that wouldn't waste his own time making a fuss over nothing.

Not trying to belittle the notions..I'm just saying, next week (or whenever, some time not long from now) someone else will be posting about mods let so and so do this and that, and they shouldn't have. However, the mods can only moderate, that's it...in terms of consistency most of the job is simply a judgement call, and down to how one reads the ToS. So if you want consistency, appealing bad decisions and reporting posts that should get reported is probably the best case scenario. You may not necessarily want the post back, but asking for it to be put back if it was not what it was claimed to be is actually reasonable, and one step towards consistency.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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