Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Kim O'Hara » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:32 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Ayu wrote:"Herbie" must be a typo.
Doubt it. I think SD believes boda and Herbie are the same person. I don't think so. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the person who writes as boda also writes under another alias (or few) here, possibly a banned one. And having multiple accounts is against the rules.
This comes up often enough that I thought I should respond.

The current rules http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=12768 say:
*Dharma Wheel operates a strict "One Account Per Person" system. Any problems with accounts for example forgetting a password, can be sorted out by contacting the owner or other member of staff. Creating an account with a different user ID after receiving a ban is a serious breach of the ToS and may lead to a permanent ban. Posts from duplicate accounts will be merged into one account. The creation of an account commonly known as a "sock puppet" account and/or also any attempt at impersonating someone else may also result in an automatic permanent ban. Any account where the true (IP address) identity has been concealed in some fashion for the purpose of deceit may also result in an immediate permanent ban. Accounts created only for the purpose of advertising or spamming will attract an immediate ban. All decisions about permanent or long-term bans will be taken by the Moderating Team on a case-by-case basis.
The rules were changed six months or a year ago (I can't remember exactly) and we did post an Announcement at the time.
As far as we know, no-one has multiple active accounts.
If you read the rules carefully, you will see that they are not as hard-line as they used to be.
Yes, we still disapprove of these behaviours - but if someone reincarnates as a good member, well, that's what new lives are for. On the other hand, if someone reincarnates as a hungry ghost (does 'reincarnate' apply to ghosts? :tongue: ) then the hungry ghost well be returned to the hell realms as quickly as possible.
Some of you have been very good about reporting such reincarnations - and we do like to know, so thanks for doing it - but once the new identity is known and accepted there is no need to keep on niggling us or the user about it. It's a bit like reminding reformed drunks about their past. :thinking:

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
That's why I'm saying, notifying the mods of missteps is as simple as reporting stuff that oughta be, and appealing stuff you think was wrong.
Myoho-Nameless wrote:
hard to know what to report, if what I see getting removed or changed is not consistent. this also makes the ToS less than useful.
Note: I am not asking for a revolution. I saw a general trend, it merited a "general statement". if you think thats not useful, I guess we are on two different wavelengths. I am not going to go back months or years of posts and report them, neither do I expect the mods to. This has being going on for a while.

come to think of it, if non mods are not reporting certain things like light profanity, maybe thats a sign that it aught to be allowed.....
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:34 pm

Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
That's why I'm saying, notifying the mods of missteps is as simple as reporting stuff that oughta be, and appealing stuff you think was wrong.
Myoho-Nameless wrote:
hard to know what to report, if what I see getting removed or changed is not consistent. this also makes the ToS less than useful.
Note: I am not asking for a revolution. I saw a general trend, it merited a "general statement". if you think thats not useful, I guess we are on two different wavelengths. I am not going to go back months or years of posts and report them, neither do I expect the mods to. This has being going on for a while.

come to think of it, if non mods are not reporting certain things like light profanity, maybe thats a sign that it aught to be allowed.....
Well, it pretty much is in a functional sense.

The rule against profanity exists for egregious use IME, and normally doesn't get pulled out that often. I will say I think it is a silly thing to try to moderate unless it's such a blatant example that it can't be ignored.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:45 pm

I have had quite a few of mine pulled because of it. Though that was a while ago. I don't do it much anymore. Because of aforementioned pulling.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:50 pm

Myoho-Nameless wrote:I have had quite a few of mine pulled because of it. Though that was a while ago. I don't do it much anymore. Because of aforementioned pulling.

IDK..modding is judgement call though, that's why i'm encouraging actual conversation with the mod in question. Personally I never modded people's foul language because I have enough of a pottymouth myself, and never felt too sure about that rule. On a personal level I don't think it should be on the radar really in terms of things people do unless it's some huge diatribe of cussing or something. I'm not a mod any more though, so still, the best is to get the information from a mod. I can vouch for the fact that everyone on the team right now would respond to you if you simply pm'ed them and asked why a thing happened. Not saying it would be perfect or your problem fixed, but you would get a response.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:05 pm

I know why a thing happened. I accept that it happened. This thread was more inspired by "a thing" not happening. Several times, over a long time. I can't single out any individual mod. Hence a thread and not a PM.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Kim O'Hara » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:29 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:The rule against profanity exists for egregious use IME, and normally doesn't get pulled out that often. I will say I think it is a silly thing to try to moderate unless it's such a blatant example that it can't be ignored.
There are good reasons for reducing bad language here as much as possible, even if they are not always strong enough to make us remove it.
One is to respect the differences between cultures. I know that, in general, Americans and Aussies habitually and casually use far more bad language than Germans. I don't know so much about other countries. I think people from most other European countries are somewhere in between but I'm not sure. If we (the majority here) don't restrain ourselves, we make DW a quite unpleasant place for others. Should we do that? I don't think so.
Another is to respect the context. Should we use bar-room and football-stadium language here, or the tone we use in the gompa, church or school-room?
:thinking:

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:42 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:The rule against profanity exists for egregious use IME, and normally doesn't get pulled out that often. I will say I think it is a silly thing to try to moderate unless it's such a blatant example that it can't be ignored.
There are good reasons for reducing bad language here as much as possible, even if they are not always strong enough to make us remove it.
One is to respect the differences between cultures. I know that, in general, Americans and Aussies habitually and casually use far more bad language than Germans. I don't know so much about other countries. I think people from most other European countries are somewhere in between but I'm not sure. If we (the majority here) don't restrain ourselves, we make DW a quite unpleasant place for others. Should we do that? I don't think so.
Another is to respect the context. Should we use bar-room and football-stadium language here, or the tone we use in the gompa, church or school-room?
:thinking:

:namaste:
Kim
The difference between cultures is as much a reason to be more tolerant about rough language than to curtail it more, IMO. In American culture, there is a long history of artistic and literary use of profanity, some Dharma teachers have used it even. What is bar room language to you might simply be direct speaking from the heart from someone else. There is a Golden Mean of course. but that's the thing, in my cultural world (the one I grew up in at least - American Southwest), some objections to "bad language" that come up DW would be considered overly fussy and pointless. Of course, to others, it might indeed be "barroom" talk. I'm not advocating not moderating it at all, I'm just saying there are places where it's appropriate, and removing them randomly is well, random.

this is especially true in areas like the creative writing section (has it ever come up in there, I don't remember it coming up), where the use of profanity might have a valid place, and it does have a valid place in people's expression. I think when you say something like "well a German might get offended", it begins to go overboard, whereas if you say "most people would be offended", the latter is the time to moderate it, not so much the former.

Of course, this is one place I was always in the minority on the mod team, and it's really not my say anymore anyway;), so nuff said.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by DGA » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:45 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote: in my cultural world (the one I grew up in at least - American Southwest), some objections to "bad language" that come up DW would be considered overly fussy and pointless. Of course, to others, it might indeed be "barroom" talk. I'm not advocating not moderating it at all, I'm just saying there are places where it's appropriate, and removing them randomly is well, random.
Related: this may be an American tendency as well... when I see someone saying something disagreeable on DW, even if it's totally out of line, I tend to assume that the author is posting in good faith and will often engage with him or her in some way. Before long, that post and my reply to it will just as often be removed to the happy hunting grounds. :lol: It's not good, it's not bad, it's just the kind of slippage in communication that can happen on an international board.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Ayu » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:31 pm

Well, what should I say?
We're trying to be as consistent as possible, detecting unpleasant communication if possible (even if not reported), remove as less posts as possible, ban as less people as possible, fulfill as many wishes as possible, be as less German as possible, :smile:

... but nobody is perfect :tongue: ... (yet.)
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by boda » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:16 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Should we use bar-room and football-stadium language here, or the tone we use in the gompa, church or school-room?
This is a fascinating question, and it expresses what's at the core of the inconsistencies, as I see it.

Though there are 'teams' in the football stadium, and perhaps the bar, they don't have the hierarchical structure of gompa, church, and school. Also, barroom and football stadium are not team specific. The mention of gompa is 'team' specific.

If DW is like gompa, church, or school, then who are the authorities? Or to put the question more pointedly, are all 'teams' treated with equal consistency here?

We can help our biases exactly because we are only human. Humans have the capacity to improve.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by mindyourmind » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:52 pm

I really believe that the moderators here can lighten up a bit, and that goes for language, for topics and for tough debates. The Dharma, and its practitioners, can handle more than what you seem to think. Open the windows, let the fresh air and sunlight stream in.

Some of the rules here would please a Baptist preacher.

( I say this with great love for the mods and the forum, but above all for the Dharma)
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Ayu » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:12 am

mindyourmind wrote:I really believe that the moderators here can lighten up a bit, and that goes for language, for topics and for tough debates. The Dharma, and its practitioners, can handle more than what you seem to think. Open the windows, let the fresh air and sunlight stream in.

Some of the rules here would please a Baptist preacher.

( I say this with great love for the mods and the forum, but above all for the Dharma)
Can you please write a PM to the respective moderators about what you mean exactly? Which cases? Which acts of moderation? This critique is not helpful, because there is not the slightest hint, what you are talking about.
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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by mindyourmind » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:14 am

It is a general comment, an opinion, on a thread dedicated to such a discussion. No PM's necessary. I simply have in mind the practice whereby certain contentious discussions are terminated or discouraged long before there is any need for that. We are, in my view, too sensitive about language and the odd offence being given or taken. Such matters must never be gratuitous but sometimes they are necessary or harmless. If my comment is not helpful simply disregard it.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:32 am

Ayu wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I really believe that the moderators here can lighten up a bit, and that goes for language, for topics and for tough debates. The Dharma, and its practitioners, can handle more than what you seem to think. Open the windows, let the fresh air and sunlight stream in.

Some of the rules here would please a Baptist preacher.

( I say this with great love for the mods and the forum, but above all for the Dharma)
Can you please write a PM to the respective moderators about what you mean exactly? Which cases? Which acts of moderation? This critique is not helpful, because there is not the slightest hint, what you are talking about.
He means that the moderation here is often a bit overbearing. The moderation team here has heard this complaint before and usually responds with "You have no idea how tolerant we are" followed with "You have no idea how hard it is to be a moderator."

M

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by mindyourmind » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
Ayu wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I really believe that the moderators here can lighten up a bit, and that goes for language, for topics and for tough debates. The Dharma, and its practitioners, can handle more than what you seem to think. Open the windows, let the fresh air and sunlight stream in.

Some of the rules here would please a Baptist preacher.

( I say this with great love for the mods and the forum, but above all for the Dharma)
Can you please write a PM to the respective moderators about what you mean exactly? Which cases? Which acts of moderation? This critique is not helpful, because there is not the slightest hint, what you are talking about.
He means that the moderation here is often a bit overbearing. The moderation team here has heard this complaint before and usually responds with "You have no idea how tolerant we are" followed with "You have no idea how hard it is to be a moderator."

M
What that man said ;)
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Dan74 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:04 pm

MYM and Malcolm, you may well have a point but do you remember a few years ago when moderation was a lot more lax, a number of people left in a huff because they felt they were being harassed by certain members and blamed the mods for not stepping in? More recently a number of people complained in public and private that the level of discord on the forum is really unpleasant and left. Lightening up and having a light touch are always a good thing but balancing conflicting preferences of members for a more hands-off approach vs tighter more civil tone, is quite tricky.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:11 pm

Dan74 wrote:MYM and Malcolm, you may well have a point but do you remember a few years ago when moderation was a lot more lax, a number of people left in a huff because they felt they were being harassed by certain members and blamed the mods for not stepping in?
I did not leave in a huff. I left and started the moribund Vajracakra because I was being targeted by a pathological maniac and the moderation team would not do anything about it at all, despite repeated complaints, while concerning themselves with "proper language" and so on. I did not find the team then more lax, I found them concerned with the wrong issues. Focusing on trivia like "bad words," when it was clear that one of its (most valuable) users was being totally harassed.
More recently a number of people complained in public and private that the level of discord on the forum is really unpleasant and left.
Yes, this happens. People lose their appetite for aggressive posters.
Lightening up and having a light touch are always a good thing but balancing conflicting preferences of members for a more hands-off approach vs tighter more civil tone, is quite tricky.
I would focus more on whether people are being kind to each other, than on whether they are using swear words.

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by Norwegian » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:16 pm

Dan74 wrote:MYM and Malcolm, you may well have a point but do you remember a few years ago when moderation was a lot more lax, a number of people left in a huff because they felt they were being harassed by certain members and blamed the mods for not stepping in? More recently a number of people complained in public and private that the level of discord on the forum is really unpleasant and left. Lightening up and having a light touch are always a good thing but balancing conflicting preferences of members for a more hands-off approach vs tighter more civil tone, is quite tricky.
It's not that difficult...

It's about having an understanding of what the general vision of a said forum is. Understanding what really matters vs. what doesn't matter that much.

If a management team all shares this specific understanding, then all moderators will know better how to moderate. But, on the other hand, if this vision is lacking, or if not all moderators shares this understanding, it will be splintered, and that will easily be noticed on a forum.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

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Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules

Post by newbie » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:39 pm

I'm not born at this IP address I'm posting from, I'm born in Europe.
And my teacher has a level of interaction I've never witnessed before.
Stay here and moderate because I have something to learn!
Take care!

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