Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

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Mantrik
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Mantrik » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:28 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:31 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:42 am
More to the point: Considering things in dualistic terms of "dirty" and "pure" also tends to shoot Great Perfection (and Tantric and yogic practice) down in flames.
Tashi delek G,

These disgusting political coverstations here aboard , i see on the level of Theravada / Sutra, the field of dualism. Therefore remarkable that Dzogchenpas are here involved, in these bad kind of dualisms and stamp the world accordingly their "opinions" about good and bad.
Here's a test:
You are invited to give the prayer in the House of Representatives.
Would you go or not?
Why or why not?

Surely someone who is a Buddhist woudl relish the opportunity to introduce Dharma to politicians....in fact, a certain 'Buddhist' cult we may not name here has delivered just such a prayer (26th Feb I think).

I ask what is different from such an action, and seeking to integrate Dharma into political discussions here?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

smcj
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm

Here’s a different test. And unlike the hypothetical of speaking to lawmakers, this scenario is 100% guaranteed to actually happen:

An hour after you die what about this life continues to be important?

Your health?
Your relationships?
Your finances?
Your job?
The environment?
Culture?
Politics?

If death trivializes an issue then it’s not about Dharma.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Norwegian
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Norwegian » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:10 pm

smcj wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm
Here’s a different test. And unlike the hypothetical of speaking to lawmakers, this scenario is 100% guaranteed to actually happen:

An hour after you die what about this life continues to be important?

Your health?
Your relationships?
Your finances?
Your job?
The environment?
Culture?
Politics?

If death trivializes an issue then it’s not about Dharma.
Then why are you here?

smcj
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:09 am

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:10 pm
smcj wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm
If death trivializes an issue then it’s not about Dharma.
Then why are you here?
Death does not trivialize the Mahayana or Vajrayana, and that's supposed to be what this website is dedicated to discussing.

Don't get me wrong, the "lounge" forum on DW allows for discussion of whatever, including samsara and politics. I've posted on political threads here. It's no big deal. But since the point of participating here at all is to discuss things that aren't trivial, then in this situation it is appropriate to say that a given discussion falls short of that goal (impermanence and death, the 3 [or 4 marks] of Buddha Dharma, the teachings on emptiness, the faults of samsara, etc.). If this website was dedicated to politics then a discussion about Dharma would be off-topic.
Last edited by smcj on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:31 am

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Last edited by Kunga Lhadzom on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
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arch
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:34 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
Tashi delek,

IMO to discuss politics here aboard is not at all a good case . . .

Therefore i want to suggest to forbid political discussions here aboard and discuss only Buddha Dharma matters, which go beyond politics, left and right winged idiots and the middle.

KY
arch wrote: Ok, I'm left wing.

Re. characterizing the general pop, and by extension many participants here, based on their political preferences, as "idiots" . . .
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
Yeh in that sense that left is extreme and right is the opposite of left also extreme and that is idiot too.
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
". . . left and right winged idiots and the middle."

Did I mention that I was left wing?

No ad hom taken.

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
No middle way at the moment, so their adherents are imo opinion idiots, it does not make sense until now to adhere one of those extreme parties,who are also engaged in violence and that is idiot too.

Characterization of left and right as "extreme" is just relative to your own preference (I could have said "prejudice"). IMO, sometimes the middle is milquetoast, the right "extreme", and the left "right on".

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
The only thing which is left is Dharma practice and give compassion and HELP to those who are in need for that, that is not left nor right, that is the real thing and never idiot (for a Buddhist).

Kyabje Lama Zopa Rinpoche:
"What is Dharma? The general meaning of Dharma is “holding.” If someone is in danger of falling down, if someone is suffering—if there is a high cliff and someone is in danger of falling down—then the method to protect them, to hold them from that suffering is the Dharma. That method is the Buddhadharma."


How is discussing or practicing politics not practicing Dharma? How is it not giving compassion (KLZR: protection) and HELP when speaking truth to power?

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Matt J
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Matt J » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:54 am

Karma?
smcj wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm
Here’s a different test. And unlike the hypothetical of speaking to lawmakers, this scenario is 100% guaranteed to actually happen:

An hour after you die what about this life continues to be important?
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

smcj
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:14 am

Matt J wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:54 am
Karma?
Karma is important for all beings after death. So is your practice of Dharma, which for this discussion can be loosely described as how much you have cultivated your heart and your mind.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

smcj
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:09 am

How is discussing or practicing politics not practicing Dharma? How is it not giving compassion (KLZR: protection) and HELP when speaking truth to power?
Here’s HHK (O.T.) talking about why he doesn’t want to be political. Start at the 31 minute mark to 32:30 or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdI4DMRFkm4

The 16th Karmapa was very clear that he did not want his students to get involved with politics. I’m Karma Kagyu. Maybe I’m prejudiced.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:26 am

Political discussion on DW is pretty relevant. Where else can one discuss how Dharma or Buddhism intersects and relates with our current state of affairs? And politics can learn a lot from Buddhism.

Most importantly, I really don't like the idea of censoring people's thoughts and ideas.

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:28 am

I've enjoyed some of them, others not so much. DW is one of the few places where I find people I share politics with, most of the time it's the standard liberal vs. conservative thing, on most issues; but at least on DW there are nuances that are harder to find in mainstream political conversation.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

smcj
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:39 am

How do you guys feel about the bible thumpers in America that promote patriotism as a religious vale? Do you understand why the U.S. Constitution has the separation of church and state?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:42 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:39 am
How do you guys feel about the bible thumpers in America that promote patriotism as a religious vale? Do you understand why the U.S. Constitution has the separation of church and state?
Yes, to protect religious freedom, even if that means one is an atheist, that is, one is protected from being assaulted by the religious views of others.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Matt J
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Matt J » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:56 am

So you don't agree that how you live your life, your relationships, your job, your politics even, has an impact on your karma?
smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:14 am
Matt J wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:54 am
Karma?
Karma is important for all beings after death. So is your practice of Dharma, which for this discussion can be loosely described as how much you have cultivated your heart and your mind.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Sādhaka
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Sādhaka » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:55 pm

Quoted From The Practitioner of Meditation, Longchen Rabjam wrote:Nowadays, when people are so unruly,
It is vital that you first achieve your own well-being in solitude.

Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.

Without letting your mind be deceived by the devious maras of distraction and busyness, It is vital that you apply yourself to the practice.
Atisha and Geshe Tenzin Zopa wrote:All Buddhas say the cause for the completion
Of collections, whose nature is
Merit and exalted wisdom
Is the development of higher perception.


Training oneself to develop the training in the Method teachings through cultivating Bodhicitta and training in Wisdom through developing one’s understanding and realisation of emptiness (i.e. the selflessness of person and of phenomena), are the two main causes which will lead us to gain higher perception in order for us to benefit sentient beings.

“Higher perception” refers to clairvoyance, which is needed to benefit sentient beings properly. This is important in order for us to understand the different mental dispositions of sentient beings.
Khunu Lama Rinpoche wrote:One thing that really helps us complete these two collections is the ability to foresee the future; therefore, we should try to acquire clairvoyance.

Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly.

Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.

(Not sure if the following is a legit quote, but is true regardless):

Jetsun Milarepa wrote:The affairs of the world will go on forever. Do not delay the practice of meditation.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Simon E.
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:01 pm

It's not an either/or.

With the greatest of respect for HH the 16th Karmapa who I had the honour to meet, he lived most of his life in a cultural and political setting utterly different to that of most of us.
We must find our own way on some issues.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

Sādhaka
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Sādhaka » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:10 pm

Well let’s put aside what the Sixteenth Karmapa said for now (I’ve edited the quote out of my previous post).
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Simon E.
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:12 pm

I believe that's called 'moving the goalposts'.

But my answer applies equally to all the other luminaries that you quote.

They did not live in our times. Their conventional truth is not our conventional truth.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

Sādhaka
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Sādhaka » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:48 pm

Actually the quotes I posted above apply now more than ever. There’s no time to waste.

Therefore it seems the best we can do here is agree to disagree.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Norwegian
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Norwegian » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:00 pm

If you live in a retreat hut, far up in the desolate mountain ranges, isolated by the vastness of nature, surrounded by fresh air and blue skies, pine trees and the wind, together with animals, then that is your reality, that is how your situation is, and that is what you will have to deal with.

But if you live in society with other humans, then you are part of that society whether you like it or not (and you are certainly not living in a cave or a retreat hut.) And so you should know how to work with these circumstances, because the better you can understand these things, the better you will live your life, whatever way that may be.

So optimally speaking while living in society, perhaps you are a dedicated practitioner, which means you spend most of your time on study and practice. So how is politics then relevant for you? Perhaps it is not what you are most interested in, but nevertheless it is still important. Chances are that in your life at one point or more, you will encounter minor or major points related to politics that are highly important to you, and that means you should know a little about how these things work.

Right now in the US, as an example, something that is very important for most Americans dare I say, is the issue of gun control and gun laws. Why? Because it affects children, and it affects teenagers. It affects their parents, their families, their friends, their loved ones, and in fact it affects many people in American society, at a deeply serious level. Wanting a change here means you have to get engaged in politics, regardless of what level that may be. Because this is how change happens.

And so most of us, affected by things in daily life and society, will respond to some or more of these things with opinions and ideas that belong to the realm of politics. Being that we're social creatures, we enjoy communicating with each others. Agreeing or disagreeing, sharing viewpoints, through discussions. That includes politics.

If you dislike political discussions, simply don't read them. Don't participate in them. But don't say "I am offended", and then try to shut down others and force them to be quiet, just because you don't like what they're talking about. This is behavior worthy of being part of a dark dystopian novel.

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