Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

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Mantrik
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Mantrik » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:04 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:59 pm
Mantrik and Simon, instead of simply disagreeing, criticisms and insinuations about others' Dharma practice being cowardly or incomplete? Misrepresenting our position and dismissing us as snowflakes doesn't show any desire to communicate.

If this is how metadiscussion about politics goes, maybe you can see why some feel the way they do by the actual political discussions themselves.
I'm not sure about a ban on politics here but this thread is kind of a microcosm of the problem :shrug:
Kalden Yungdrung and I aren't newbies here either. I would hope that input about DW from a member since 2010 would be met with more than derision.
I would hope you would know better than to throw straw men into the air and assume either myself or Simon are daft enough to fall for it. ;) It is you who are misprepresenting others. My criticism of the OP was directly on topic. However, your personal remarks towards others are indeed meta-discussion.

I think I was entirely accurate in describing the OP as in tune with 'snowflake' students who seek to shut down debate they may find upsetting by banning speakers and setting up 'safe spaces'. That's exactly what was being proposed.

Quite what someone's length of time as a member here has to do with the validity of an argument I don't know. Let's see.......I joined in 2012 and have contributed far more posts than KY, even with a gap and re-registering. I have also been a Mod. All of which shows that you can be here a long time, post many thousands of times, be a Mod, and still write nonsense. ;)

EDIT:

I am responding to the OP (Original Post) not the other interpetation of OP (Original Poster).
The Original Post was not written in well-constructed English but expressed a view.
To describe that post and view as in tune with that of 'snowflake' students is not an attack on the person but a refutation of that view. Thank you.
Last edited by Mantrik on Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grigoris
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:21 pm

Enough ad hom arguments.

Please resond to the OP's point and stop engaing in critique of the OP's personality.

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kirtu » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:34 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
Tashi delek,

IMO to discuss politics here aboard is not at all a good case.

Dharma
and
left and right winged, (is the middle way here possible ?)
based on discrimination,
illusions and political preferences

are not at all Dharma orientated, whereas i understand that they belong to Dharma in the sense of phenomenons or emptiness.

Therefore i want to suggest to forbid political discussions here aboard and discuss only Buddha Dharma matters, which go beyond politics, left and right winged idiots and the middle.

Maybe new TOS possible ? :applause:

KY
KY -

Thankl-you for your suggestion and comments.

However, some of the world is a very bad place still. We have a responsibility to stand against rampant evil in the world.

For example, I was born in a country that attempted to remove many different kinds of people from the world through genocide years before I was born. I was born there because my home country was one of several nations that put a stop to that horror and then occupyied that country to make sure it didn't happen again.

Ironically however, the country oif my citizenship suffered political violence before and after I was born - people were murdered for voting the wrong way for for voting at all or example. It also violently enforced discrimination against people of different skin colors and ethnic origins. To some extent it still does. It also kept and still keeps poor people oppressed. However, almost everyone actually born and raised in this country *DENIES* that this takes place. Some few deny that it ever took place in fact. Most of the oppressed will only admit oppression privately, behind closed doors even though there is some muted discussion in the public media.

As Buddhists we have a responsibility to analyse the roots of samsara and actually transform the world peacefully when we can. This can be accomplished to some degree through political discussion and dialouge.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Shantideva?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:00 pm

boda wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:04 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:36 pm

as Shantideva points out, it is better to wear shoes than to try and cover the world in leather.
Nice idiom. Shantideva?
Perhaps not original with Shantideva. The older text of the Yoga Vasistha uses a similar simile:
When one’s mind is perfected, the whole world appears to him
to be full of nectar, just as to a man putting on a
pair of shoes the whole earth appears, as it were,
covered with leather. (V, 21, 14.)
Manjushri is the hallowed Dharma, the ruler of the Dharma, the shining one, the superb illuminator of the world;
He is the powerful lord of Dharma, the king of the Dharma, the one who shows the most excellent pathway of mind. Manjushri-namasamgiti

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Re: Shantideva?

Post by Jeff H » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:14 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:00 pm
boda wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:04 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:36 pm

as Shantideva points out, it is better to wear shoes than to try and cover the world in leather.
Nice idiom. Shantideva?
Perhaps not original with Shantideva. The older text of the Yoga Vasistha uses a similar simile:
When one’s mind is perfected, the whole world appears to him
to be full of nectar, just as to a man putting on a
pair of shoes the whole earth appears, as it were,
covered with leather. (V, 21, 14.)
To be sure ... as he also says in chapter one:
Shantideva wrote:2. Here I shall say nothing that has not been said before,
And in the art of prosody I have no skill.
I therefore have no thought that this might be of benefit to others;
I wrote it only to habituate my mind.

3. My faith will thus be strengthened for a little while,
That I might grow accustomed to this virtuous way.
But others who now chance upon my words
May profit also, equal to myself in fortune.
(Not that this has anything to do with the topic -- sorry.) :emb:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:22 am

For the good order folks,

At the moment are for me politics,very disgusting.
Persons like Malcolm here dare to say i am anti Muslim, guess he would better ask me that before he writes it down here. Assumptions and conclusions based on vague informations.

Also i would be an adherent of the Dutch idiot Geerd Wilders, who works for the Zionists and is paid by them to hate Muslims, that was one time proclaimed by Mr. Malcolm. Total non sense because i am not pro the Zionists - American dictators as well never for the other extreme party the violent muslim extremists. But to put a person inside a block, that is quick done, isn´t it?

Further is it remarkable that the majority here aboard is left winged and these guys push a certain image about what is good and bad and what should be accepted and not, very democratic?

Well like you have seen i am as well TOTAL anti left winged idiots as well the others, the right winged fanatics / idiots.

Even i do not want to be here dwelling in the middle because that does not make sense. It is still balancing on the dirty edge of politics.

What makes sense is following the Buddha Dharma here, which is not based on politics.
Guess in our Natural State we do not encounter dirty politics or yes ?

But if you think dirty politics do belong to Buddha Dharma and that we can get emancipated / enlightened by following, discussing and understanding dirty politics, then please go on with your left/right winged illusionary opinions and maybe you can attain Buddhahood by that as a method.

Compassion with the suffering of others that is needed as well prayers for them and helping them as far as is possible, that would be great as practice.

But discussing that on paper , that does not help others, only it shows others how intelligent we are and how good our ego can understand the real facts in the light of the so called left winged or right winged ideology.

Then with this in mind others are overpowered and get an overdose on "real facts" to digest.

So you are right i better do not take a look anymore into those horrible fanatic high intelligence dirty political L/R winged discussions, then it does not disturb my mind anymore.

I am not the only one who dislikes these dirty political discussions here aboard.......

But we are living in a democratic western world and we have the right to discuss dirty politics,
then also on a Buddha Dharma forum, because it would help sentient beings ? :thinking:

In the Buddha Dharma helping sentient beings is mostly done by other methods, as far as i know.
But if discussing dirty politics belong to collective happiness here aboard, then i do not want to take away your happy times here.

My only point was to explain here that dirty politic is never Buddha Dharma and real helping the poor ones /victims, looks different than understanding in a "perfect way " with the academic brains how politics are, run, are wrong, who is the boogy man etc.

But again , for me your political discussions are disgusting and a good advice from your side , don´t look inside anymore, i will follow your advice no doubt about it.
The best meditation is no meditation

smcj
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:53 am

Discussing politics is talking about samsara. With politics alll the traditional teachings about the faults of samsara are clearly apparent and in full force.

The problem I have is when people here lose sight of that. The “suffering of change” rightly predicts that every answer to a given problem will in time produce a different set of problems. There will always be problems no matter what.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Shantideva?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:24 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:00 pm
boda wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:04 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:36 pm

as Shantideva points out, it is better to wear shoes than to try and cover the world in leather.
Nice idiom. Shantideva?
Perhaps not original with Shantideva. The older text of the Yoga Vasistha uses a similar simile:
When one’s mind is perfected, the whole world appears to him
to be full of nectar, just as to a man putting on a
pair of shoes the whole earth appears, as it were,
covered with leather. (V, 21, 14.)

Some of that Yoga Vasistha stuff is very well spoken. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by DGA » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:44 am

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:16 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:59 pm
Mantrik and Simon, instead of simply disagreeing, criticisms and insinuations about others' Dharma practice being cowardly or incomplete? Misrepresenting our position and dismissing us as snowflakes doesn't show any desire to communicate.

If this is how metadiscussion about politics goes, maybe you can see why some feel the way they do by the actual political discussions themselves.
I'm not sure about a ban on politics here but this thread is kind of a microcosm of the problem :shrug:
Kalden Yungdrung and I aren't newbies here either. I would hope that input about DW from a member since 2010 would be met with more than derision.
"Input" in the form of wanting to shut down others and ban discussion on a very important aspect of human society (politics) is not genuine nor is it worth respecting.
Yes. Choosing not to participate in some conversations (often a healthy decision) is different from trying to forbid others from participating in those conversations (not so healthy).

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Matt J
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Matt J » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:17 am

So much for the "Great Perfection."
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:22 am
But again , for me your political discussions are disgusting and a good advice from your side , don´t look inside anymore, i will follow your advice no doubt about it.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

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Grigoris
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Grigoris » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:42 am

More to the point: Considering things in dualistic terms of "dirty" and "pure" also tends to shoot Great Perfection (and Tantric and yogic practice) down in flames.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:42 am
More to the point: Considering things in dualistic terms of "dirty" and "pure" also tends to shoot Great Perfection (and Tantric and yogic practice) down in flames.
Tashi delek G,

These disgusting political coverstations here aboard , i see on the level of Theravada / Sutra, the field of dualism. Therefore remarkable that Dzogchenpas are here involved, in these bad kind of dualisms and stamp the world accordingly their "opinions" about good and bad.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:34 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:31 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:42 am
More to the point: Considering things in dualistic terms of "dirty" and "pure" also tends to shoot Great Perfection (and Tantric and yogic practice) down in flames.
Tashi delek G,

These disgusting political coverstations here aboard , i see on the level of Theravada / Sutra, the field of dualism. Therefore remarkable that Dzogchenpas are here involved, in these bad kind of dualisms and stamp the world accordingly their "opinions" about good and bad.
You can always ceased reading and posting in this board, if your delicate sensibilities are so wounded by having to see political speech on DW.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Shantideva?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:00 pm
boda wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:04 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:36 pm

as Shantideva points out, it is better to wear shoes than to try and cover the world in leather.
Nice idiom. Shantideva?
Perhaps not original with Shantideva. The older text of the Yoga Vasistha uses a similar simile:
When one’s mind is perfected, the whole world appears to him
to be full of nectar, just as to a man putting on a
pair of shoes the whole earth appears, as it were,
covered with leather. (V, 21, 14.)
Pretty sure the adage predates both...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Mantrik » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:14 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:31 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:42 am
More to the point: Considering things in dualistic terms of "dirty" and "pure" also tends to shoot Great Perfection (and Tantric and yogic practice) down in flames.
Tashi delek G,

These disgusting political coverstations here aboard , i see on the level of Theravada / Sutra, the field of dualism. Therefore remarkable that Dzogchenpas are here involved, in these bad kind of dualisms and stamp the world accordingly their "opinions" about good and bad.
It is your own perception that identifies a dualism, a disgust, while making that criticism of others.
You may wish to work on that. Dzogchen is a good method.
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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kirtu
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kirtu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:34 pm
You can always ceased reading and posting in this board, if your delicate sensibilities are so wounded by having to see political speech on DW.
And this response is supposed to be a reflection of the paramita of friendliness?

:offtopic: (it's not off topic off course but the face reflects my intention correctly)

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:44 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:34 pm
You can always ceased reading and posting in this board, if your delicate sensibilities are so wounded by having to see political speech on DW.
And this response is supposed to be a reflection of the paramita of friendliness?
Nope, it is a reflection of my annoyance at the OP's bid to limit speech here.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
Tashi delek,

IMO to discuss politics here aboard is not at all a good case . . .

Therefore i want to suggest to forbid political discussions here aboard and discuss only Buddha Dharma matters, which go beyond politics, left and right winged idiots and the middle.

KY
Ok, I'm left wing. I and my then ten-year old daughter collected signatures on behalf of the Green Party USA to get Ralph Nader on the ballot here in Virginia back when he ran for president. So I'm an idiot? I resemble that remark!

Following politics is the way to understand how to vote, which is crucial, precious, and a big responsibility.

Now that Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi wields power in Buddhist Myanmar, don't you think politics is important for every citi zen there to understand? As a buddhist, do you not need to understand this too, in a buddhist community context as well as a global one? It could even lead you to right action.

This blog is inherently political. Politics is just "the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area". Don't look now, but you are being governed . . .

Re. characterizing the general pop, and by extension many participants here, based on their political preferences, as "idiots": Thanks for the "metta" discussion. I know dear Emily would have appreciated it.


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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:29 pm

arch wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm
Tashi delek,

IMO to discuss politics here aboard is not at all a good case . . .

Therefore i want to suggest to forbid political discussions here aboard and discuss only Buddha Dharma matters, which go beyond politics, left and right winged idiots and the middle.

KY
Ok, I'm left wing. I and my then ten-year old daughter collected signatures on behalf of the Green Party USA to get Ralph Nader on the ballot here in Virginia back when he ran for president. So I'm an idiot? I resemble that remark!

Following politics is the way to understand how to vote, which is crucial, precious, and a big responsibility.

Now that Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi wields power in Buddhist Myanmar, don't you think politics is important for every citi zen there to understand? As a buddhist, do you not need to understand this too, in a buddhist community context as well as a global one? It could even lead you to right action.

This blog is inherently political. Politics is just "the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area". Don't look now, but you are being governed . . .

Re. characterizing the general pop, and by extension many participants here, based on their political preferences, as "idiots": Thanks for the "metta" discussion. I know dear Emily would have appreciated it.

Yeh in that sense that left is extreme and right is the opposite of left also extreme and that is idiot too.
No middle way at the moment, so their adherents are imo opinion idiots, it does not make sense until now to adhere one of those extreme parties,who are also engaged in violence and that is idiot too.

The only thing which is left is Dharma practice and give compassion and HELP to those who are in need for that, that is not left nor right, that is the real thing and never idiot (for a Buddhist).
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:48 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:29 pm

Yeh in that sense that left is extreme and right is the opposite of left also extreme and that is idiot too.
No middle way at the moment, so their adherents are imo opinion idiots, it does not make sense until now to adhere one of those extreme parties,who are also engaged in violence and that is idiot too.

The only thing which is left is Dharma practice and give compassion and HELP to those who are in need for that, that is not left nor right, that is the real thing and never idiot (for a Buddhist).
You are engaging in politics right now.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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