Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

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arch
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:37 pm

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:39 am
How do you guys feel about the bible thumpers in America that promote patriotism as a religious vale? Do you understand why the U.S. Constitution has the separation of church and state?
Or promote religion as a patriotic value.

P.S.If you don't "exist", how can *you* free Tibet?

Would that be to some degree a political act?

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:39 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:00 pm
If you live in a retreat hut, far up in the desolate mountain ranges, isolated by the vastness of nature, surrounded by fresh air and blue skies, pine trees and the wind, together with animals, then that is your reality, that is how your situation is, and that is what you will have to deal with.

But if you live in society with other humans, then you are part of that society whether you like it or not (and you are certainly not living in a cave or a retreat hut.) And so you should know how to work with these circumstances, because the better you can understand these things, the better you will live your life, whatever way that may be.

So optimally speaking while living in society, perhaps you are a dedicated practitioner, which means you spend most of your time on study and practice. So how is politics then relevant for you? Perhaps it is not what you are most interested in, but nevertheless it is still important. Chances are that in your life at one point or more, you will encounter minor or major points related to politics that are highly important to you, and that means you should know a little about how these things work.

Right now in the US, as an example, something that is very important for most Americans dare I say, is the issue of gun control and gun laws. Why? Because it affects children, and it affects teenagers. It affects their parents, their families, their friends, their loved ones, and in fact it affects many people in American society, at a deeply serious level. Wanting a change here means you have to get engaged in politics, regardless of what level that may be. Because this is how change happens.

And so most of us, affected by things in daily life and society, will respond to some or more of these things with opinions and ideas that belong to the realm of politics. Being that we're social creatures, we enjoy communicating with each others. Agreeing or disagreeing, sharing viewpoints, through discussions. That includes politics.

If you dislike political discussions, simply don't read them. Don't participate in them. But don't say "I am offended", and then try to shut down others and force them to be quiet, just because you don't like what they're talking about. This is behavior worthy of being part of a dark dystopian novel.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:32 pm

Yeh i see a certain majority who prefers political dirty discussions about " reality ", which would help to a better understanding about illusions and that in turn would help us in this right / left winged idiot society to survive as Buddhists ? ......

Here i see Dharma separated from dirty politics as beneficial.

I did not say and mean that to discuss dirty politics would be forbidden, because that would be contra democratic principles and anyway impossible because we saw it already here, the democratic majority likes it so very much to discuss about dirty illusions, which outcome is always already known at before
hand.

But a political tainted new Dharma Wheel that would be the outcome, it keeps Dharma reading and discussing Buddha Dharma clean. Maybe the name should be then political dharma forum ?
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:13 am

arch wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:37 pm
smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:39 am
How do you guys feel about the bible thumpers in America that promote patriotism as a religious vale? Do you understand why the U.S. Constitution has the separation of church and state?
Or promote religion as a patriotic value.

P.S.If you don't "exist", how can *you* free Tibet?

Would that be to some degree a political act?
I liked the "don't exist" sticker. It's not my car. The other sticker was in the frame.

My car has a sticker that says;
"You Don't Have to Believe Everything You Think".
I bought the sticker from KTD monastery in Woodstock.
Last edited by smcj on Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:28 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:32 pm
Yeh i see a certain majority who prefers political dirty discussions about " reality ", which would help to a better understanding about illusions and that in turn would help us in this right / left winged idiot society to survive as Buddhists ? ......
Again with the idiot characterization? I guess you are immune . . . unlike me!

Your commitment to the Dharma seems quite sincere. Here in the USA, I will vote on your behalf, and for the benefit, I hope, of all. I will drive my school bus full of students in the hope that they will make this a better world (what's left of it, if they do not become politically active) for all, but consciously to help your practice. I cannot fight for you bc I am too old. I will keep informed: NPR/Amy Goodman, Rachel Maddow, Shep Smith, Chris Wallace, Katy Tur, Ari Melber (I may learn about rap as a side benefit!), BBC America, Huffpost, Washington Post, NYT, Al Jezeera, SPLC, The Nature Conservancy (life member) . . . just some of my favorites, so many more.

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:32 pm
Here i see Dharma separated from dirty politics as beneficial.
In my understanding, this is not distinct from the Dharma.
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:32 pm
I did not say and mean that to discuss dirty politics would be forbidden, because that would be contra democratic principles and anyway impossible because we saw it already here, the democratic majority likes it so very much to discuss about dirty illusions, which outcome is always already known at before
hand.
It gives me a certain hope that you are so pure.

Maybe the discussion will dispel illusion, which your clairvoyance has already "known at before hand".
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:32 pm
But a political tainted new Dharma Wheel that would be the outcome, it keeps Dharma reading and discussing Buddha Dharma clean. Maybe the name should be then political dharma forum ?
Despite our dirtiness, I hope you will continue to participate.

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:47 am

Heart of Perfect Wisdom
(Prajña Paramita Hridaya)
The Bodhisattva of Compassion
from the depths of prajña wisdom
saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
and sundered the bonds that cause all suffering.
Know then:
Form here is only emptiness;
emptiness only form.
Form is no other than emptiness;
emptiness no other than form.
Feeling, thought, and choice—
consciousness itself—
are the same as this.
Dharmas here are empty;
all are the primal void.
None are born or die,
nor are they stained or pure,
nor do they wax or wane.
So in emptiness no form,
no feeling, thought, or choice,
nor is there consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind,
no color, sound, smell, taste, touch,
or what the mind takes hold of,
nor even act of sensing.
No ignorance or end of it,
nor all that comes of ignorance
No withering, no death, no end of them.

Nor is there pain, or cause of pain,
or cease in pain,
or noble path to lead from pain;
not even wisdom to attain:
Attainment too is emptiness.
So know that the Bodhisattva,
holding to nothing whatever,
but dwelling in prajña wisdom,
is freed of delusive hindrance,
rid of the fear bred by it,
and reaches clearest nirvana.
All buddhas of past and present,
buddhas of future time,
through faith in prajña wisdom,
come to full enlightenment.
Know then the great dharani,
the radiant, peerless mantra,
the supreme, unfailing mantra,
the Prajña Paramita,
whose words allay all pain.
This is highest wisdom,
true beyond all doubt;
know and proclaim its truth:
Gate, gate
paragate
parasamgate
bodhi, svaha!

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:47 am

arch wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:28 am

Again with the idiot characterization? I guess you are immune . . . unlike me!
KY wrote:
Well does not the matter left end of the rope or right end of the rope, call it the extreme death ends which ends in extremism. So it is idiot to share one of these death ends, leads to nothing. The middle way is NOT possible in dirty politics because politics are EXTREME. I am not partaking in these extreme visions about good and wrong according dirty politics or left or right. Conclusion for me it is idiot.
Then left wing adherents are violent and the right wing too.
Your commitment to the Dharma seems quite sincere. Here in the USA, I will vote on your behalf, and for the benefit, I hope, of all. I will drive my school bus full of students in the hope that they will make this a better world (what's left of it, if they do not become politically active) for all, but consciously to help your practice. I cannot fight for you bc I am too old. I will keep informed: NPR/Amy Goodman, Rachel Maddow, Shep Smith, Chris Wallace, Katy Tur, Ari Melber (I may learn about rap as a side benefit!), BBC America, Huffpost, Washington Post, NYT, Al Jezeera, SPLC, The Nature Conservancy (life member) . . . just some of my favorites, so many more.
KY wrote:
Yes i prefer Dharma practice over political involvement and see Dharma as pure and dirty politics as the work of very evil demons. And sure i am for a better America but the USA is working out its bad karma / contribution and that all has a cause in 250 years war games etc. Sure as an individual to behave better in the States that is very ok and very sure if it is based on Dharma insights. But the majority in the states is ignorant / stupid / idiot and these people have so their private demons which are very powerful.
So therefore the outcome of American orientated dirty political discussions are known at beforehand.

To do prayers and rituals for a better America etc. that is the Buddhist way and helping (live) the poor ones in America that is another practice, but to be engaged in dirty political discussions, that does not make any sense. So to be engaged in active help that is the core and not to boost left/ right idiots and their hang to get right, but on compassion and the active help.
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:32 pm
Here i see Dharma separated from dirty politics as beneficial.
In my understanding, this is not distinct from the Dharma.
KY wrote:
Well we have Dharma as phenomenon or all phenomenon is Dharma
The illusion of these phenomenon
And the beings who freeze these illusions as "real" and cause suffering therefore to others, call them idiots and they defend one death end of the rope.

Then we have the persons who don`t partake in these mind games and they are imo the non idiots.

It gives me a certain hope that you are so pure.
KY wrote:
Well i am doing my best to be as pure as possible when i am not involved in dirty frozen politics of the left / right winged idiots
Maybe the discussion will dispel illusion, which your clairvoyance has already "known at before hand".
KY wrote:
At beforehand i know it where dirty political discussions will end, namely in the same , dirty things.
Out of the bin/trash can can only come out dirty things, even if we spray perfume on it.
Despite our dirtiness, I hope you will continue to participate.
Nope no way , sorry to disappoint you. It is idiot to partake in dirty politics, it does not mean you are dirty.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Simon E. » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:12 am

K.Y. I don't care what you think of my or any one elses participation in political discussions.
And I will continue both to participate in them and to not care what you think about that.
I hope that's clear. :smile:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:35 am

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:12 am
K.Y. I don't care what you think of my or any one elses participation in political discussions.
And I will continue both to participate in them and to not care what you think about that.
I hope that's clear. :smile:
Yes, that is very clear and it shows us again our personal freedom, how to interpret Dharma and Dharma.
I have explained my point of view and that does not fit with your and others opinions, no problem democratic power to the people.
if you and others can develop yourself by discussing dirty things again and over again, then take care not to get dirty hands :smile:
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Simon E. » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:43 am

My hands ARE dirty.
I am not Realised. I eat and shit and sleep and drink and work with afflictions.
I do not live in a platonic Idealised world. I live in a world where some go hungry and some are cold and some live in fear due to political decisions made by others.
I will not walk on by on the other side while I can perhaps make a small difference.

You have indeed made your point.
And it is clearly not shared by the majority who have commented on it.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Mantrik » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:52 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:43 am
My hands ARE dirty.
I am not Realised. I eat and shit and sleep and drink and work with afflictions.
I do not live in a platonic Idealised world. I live in a world where some go hungry and some are cold and some live in fear due to political decisions made by others.
I will not walk on by on the other side while I can perhaps make a small difference.

You have indeed made your point.
And it is clearly not shared by the majority who have commented on it.
Ditto.
Discussion itself can be a virtuous action, especially if the topic requires us to decide which course best leads to ahimsa.
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:04 pm

You guys can go ahead and talk politics all you want. I might even join in now and then. It's part of life.

But if you do so under the battle flag of a self-righteous Dharma practitioner, expect to have the discussion identified not as a Path that ends at Enlightenment, but as a path that ends at evangelism or jihad.

Just sayin'.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:30 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:04 pm
You guys can go ahead and talk politics all you want. I might even join in now and then. It's part of life.

But if you do so under the battle flag of a self-righteous Dharma practitioner, expect to have the discussion identified not as a Path that ends at Enlightenment, but as a path that ends at evangelism or jihad.

Just sayin'.
Do you think that everyone would understand how this applies, and to which specific remarks?

I'm not sure I can otherwise broadly identify the self-righteous component . . .

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:36 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:31 pm

These disgusting political coverstations here aboard , i see on the level of Theravada / Sutra, the field of dualism. Therefore remarkable that Dzogchenpas are here involved, in these bad kind of dualisms and stamp the world accordingly their "opinions" about good and bad.
As in "pure" or "dirty"?

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The Cicada
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by The Cicada » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:45 pm

Political discussions on Dharmawheel just got in a big circle. It's like a never-ending cycle or something. I think that's why they're so popular.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:57 pm

arch wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:36 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:31 pm

These disgusting political coverstations here aboard , i see on the level of Theravada / Sutra, the field of dualism. Therefore remarkable that Dzogchenpas are here involved, in these bad kind of dualisms and stamp the world accordingly their "opinions" about good and bad.
As in "pure" or "dirty"?
Pure = Buddha Dharma
Dirty = politics / left + right winged discussions and terror and horror, as well in discussions as well on the streets.
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:47 pm

On Feb. 4 of this year HHK (O.T.) said, “ignorance isn’t the problem. The mind you have right now is the problem.”

A true Buddhist understands that all the appearant injustice and problems in the world are negative karmas being played out. The negative karmas come from negative actions. Negative actions come from negative emotions. Negative emotions come from wrong understanding. Wrong understanding comes from unawareness. Or, as HHK has said, the (ultimate source of) the problem is the mind you have right now.

If you eliminate the problem in your mind the world’s karmas will still play out. But you won’t be perpetuating your own further involvement with it anymore, and you will be able to guide others out of their involvement too.

All that should be assumed common understanding for a website dedicated to discussing Mahayana and Vajrayana.

But if people want to engage in idle chatter I don’t see why not—as long as the basic premise of the Mahayana and Vajrayana are not forgotten.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by arch » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:00 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Pure = Buddha Dharma
Dirty = politics / left + right winged discussions and terror and horror, as well in discussions as well on the streets.
Oy! So much for "nor are they stained or pure".

Tomorrow "on the streets": hundreds of thousands of American students will take a 17 minute break from school to protest gun violence. Thank heavens for politics! Trying to take action against the horror and terror of doing absolutely nothing.

smcj
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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:37 pm

Thank heavens for politics! Trying to take action against the horror and terror of doing absolutely nothing.
Sometimes political action is necessary.

The issue of this thread is how appropriate it is to discuss politics in a venue dedicated to the discussion of Dharma. I see it as idle chatter at best.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Political discussions on Dharma Wheel

Post by Mantrik » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:47 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:47 pm
On Feb. 4 of this year HHK (O.T.) said, “ignorance isn’t the problem. The mind you have right now is the problem.”

A true Buddhist understands that all the appearant injustice and problems in the world are negative karmas being played out. The negative karmas come from negative actions. Negative actions come from negative emotions. Negative emotions come from wrong understanding. Wrong understanding comes from unawareness. Or, as HHK has said, the (ultimate source of) the problem is the mind you have right now.

If you eliminate the problem in your mind the world’s karmas will still play out. But you won’t be perpetuating your own further involvement with it anymore, and you will be able to guide others out of their involvement too.

All that should be assumed common understanding for a website dedicated to discussing Mahayana and Vajrayana.

But if people want to engage in idle chatter I don’t see why not—as long as the basic premise of the Mahayana and Vajrayana are not forgotten.
So, all our teachers are required to eliminate the problem in their own mind before they should try to guide us? Good luck with that. Living Buddhas are a bit thin on the ground. ;)

This sounds like the line which was peddled to us in a certain 'not to be named' cult. We must focus entirely on our own enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.

Meanwhile, quite able to prevent a murder on the street as I witness it unfolding, I go back to my cushion because I am a bad Buddhist if I perpetuate my samsaric involvement.

Extreme example, but that's the logical conclusion of the principle you want us all to apply to discussion about how we may improve the world a little.

If you begin with the premise that our path is incompatible with discussing samsara then any Buddhist teaching using examples from life are also likely to be 'dirty' to quote KY.

I'm also bemused by the idea that we can somehow pursue, for example, a Dzogchen path of integration with daily life by pretending it does not exist.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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