Too many deleted posts

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:46 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:22 pm
ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:29 pm
This is dharmawheel. All posts that the mods don't personally agree with are deleted right away. Nothing new really.
I think thats exaggeration.
When greg was mod, he deleted alot of posts. But now that he is gone it's just johnnydangerous locking the threads.
I wouldn't need to lock threads if people could police themselves well enough to not vomit their afflictions all over everyone else with posts that intentionally skirt the line of trolling. I mean, there are a million sites to pick fights over political and social issues, choosing to do it here is basically just a big FU to the forum, shows malice towards your fellow users more than anything else, and is not the same as actually wanting a discussion. Anyone who is an adult should be able to grok the difference.

And indeed, little has changed, a rotating group of a few people still constantly devalue the forum and the mod team, despite being here for years. Others will sometimes claim they are somehow oppressed, but then turn around and act like entitled teenagers a portion of the time. The more it changes, the more it stays the same.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:54 am

:good:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by smcj » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:01 am

ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:29 pm
This is dharmawheel. All posts that the mods don't personally agree with are deleted right away. Nothing new really.
Next time there’s an opening go ahead and volunteer. I suspect you’ll come away from the experience with some gratitude for the guys that keep at it—for no pay.
https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by dolphin_color » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:37 am

When's the next opening?

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by DharmaN00b » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:17 pm

8-)
ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:29 pm
This is dharmawheel. All posts that the mods don't personally agree with are deleted right away. Nothing new really.
How dare you! Have a merry Christmas! :heart:

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by smcj » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:49 pm

“The mods” here are just a rotation of regular posters that are willing to do a difficult and thankless job.

Thanks to all that do that service!
https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:03 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:49 pm
“The mods” here are just a rotation of regular posters that are willing to do a difficult and thankless job.

Thanks to all that do that service!
Yeah, this.

We're not here to power trip. I suppose we do exerciser power when we actually moderate posts - edit, remove, lock topics. But for the most part, we try to just enforce the ToS.

Some will inevitably complain about the lines we draw. I would point out, offenders tend to be repeat offenders.

If you have any question about where we draw lines, I would suggest look at American anti-discrimination laws. If you can't say something at work, you can't say that here.

Trump supporters are going to bristle at this. "Wah, the PC police!!!" Get over it. You're not compelled to participate at DW.

The sad fact is, a lot of what Trump spews would not be permissible in a work environment. Its a sad state of affairs we have these days.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:40 pm

This being a site primarily for Dharma discussion, one way to look at it is this:

If you walked into something like a Dharma study group, or even a social function at a Dharma center etc., what would be the reaction to the meat space version of your post? In both situations it's generally not hard to tell whether someone is saying something simply to stir shit, or whether they desire an actual exchange. This is typically what I base locking threads on. When the conversation reaches a point where people are refusing to respond to one another, things are going downhill. In the past when these threads are left open (many political/social threads fit the bill here), they turn into a long running
competition of who can insult or undermine who without officially breaking the ToS. I'm also no saying I'm above said behavior, I've found myself in the same position before and that is part of why I think limiting threads that go in this direction is a good policy.

There's definitely a higher standard here than there is on most of the internet, and not only am I happy with that, I think it's almost a given that on a Buddhist forum this should be the case.

That said, if someone doesn't like one of my decisions they can always pm me with their reasoning and we can discuss it. The fact is that I have re opened threads a number of times for this very reason. I'm also open to hearing arguments as to where I'm wrong - if they're not just name calling, complaining without details etc. Just a FYI, you get all kinds of communication as a mod, I've had people threaten me physically, call me all sorts of names etc. If someone is willing to make their case and be halfway decent I will listen to them, especially if they give a well thought out argument as to where I was wrong in my moderation decision.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Hazel » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:42 pm

Occasionally I see the mods say something and think "well, that's not the words of someone who is 100% neutral," but I think that's okay. They are not judges or politicians or some police force that dictates our daily lives and liberties. They are users, the same as us, on a discussion forum about Buddhism who have volunteered to help out.

There is so much political corruption and general injustice going on in the world and I think it's easy and understandable to begin to see anyone with privileges (like the ability to lock or delete a thread) as an extension of that. However this isn't the world, it's a discussion forum. There is no sinister purpose being mod allows one to forward. We are not enemies; we are fellow followers of Buddhadharma here to enrich our practice.

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Queequeg
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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:00 pm

Well said JD.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Hazel » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:08 pm

Hazel wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:42 pm
Occasionally I see the mods say something and think "well, that's not the words of someone who is 100% neutral," but I think that's okay. They are not judges or politicians or some police force that dictates our daily lives and liberties. They are users, the same as us, on a discussion forum about Buddhism who have volunteered to help out.

There is so much political corruption and general injustice going on in the world and I think it's easy and understandable to begin to see anyone with privileges (like the ability to lock or delete a thread) as an extension of that. However this isn't the world, it's a discussion forum. There is no sinister purpose being mod allows one to forward. We are not enemies; we are fellow followers of Buddhadharma here to enrich our practice.
I should clarify that my point here isn't that the mods are partial, just that there can be a lot of misguided feelings that I also experience when dealing with people seen as "in power". I am truly truly appreciative of the mods and couldn't ask for more.

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by futerko » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:37 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:40 pm
If you walked into something like a Dharma study group, or even a social function at a Dharma center etc., what would be the reaction to the meat space version of your post? In both situations it's generally not hard to tell whether someone is saying something simply to stir shit, or whether they desire an actual exchange.
I must say that my perception is the exact opposite here. It is very easy to avoid taking a viewpoint seriously by simply assuming it is playing the devil's advocate and/or trolling, and that nothing undermines any genuine exchange more than this assumption to simply denigrate the other's viewpoint in this way. Surely it is easier to simply ask them about their perspective than to try to second guess them in this way?

It is also quite remarkable that one would come onto a Dharma site and find that, not only are there individuals who seem unable to distinguish between a two-dimensional mass media image and a real person standing in front of them, but also that the mods insist upon upholding an entirely conventional viewpoint whereby those who have formed an attachment to a mere representation are seen as the victims of trolling.

It is almost as if we are being asked to dissemble our real views and pretend for the sake of appearances - just in case a non-Buddhist observer happens across it, that they might a actually have a thought. It would appear to be a disparagement of the actual practice. If the same thing happened in any Dharma centre I walked into, I would simply assume it was their first time there.

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:50 am

I must say that my perception is the exact opposite here. It is very easy to avoid taking a viewpoint seriously by simply assuming it is playing the devil's advocate and/or trolling,
No, one can figure out what the direction (and possibly the intention) of a thread is simply by looking at how people are communicating in it, there are some forms of communication that lead to crappy results on forums. Trolling is a type of contextual behavior, not always of content.

Links with no explanation, declarative statements of truth without qualification, attempts to skirt the line of trolling, the results of this kind of behavior can be seen regardless of political orientation or any of that. If I miss ToS violations on ‘ my side’ I’m fine with having it pointed out.

Now, it might very well be that some violations don’t get addressed due to our own biases, that’s quite possible, hell, it’s likely if not inevtiable. If that’s the case though, someone with communication skills should address specific complaints instead of just constantly berating us with vague notions of who we are or what we are trying to do.

So show us where we're wrong. Instead of a wall of vague verbiage, lodge a specific complaint, and maybe we can have a dialogue about it. I can't do anything with all your conjecture about moderation motivations, relationship to mass media, desire to appear a certain way etc.
but also that the mods insist upon upholding an entirely conventional viewpoint whereby those who have formed an attachment to a mere representation are seen as the victims of trolling.
If you have the time to dig on the mod team like this, you have the time to explain what you are specifically talking about, how about you do that.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by futerko » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:24 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:50 am
I must say that my perception is the exact opposite here. It is very easy to avoid taking a viewpoint seriously by simply assuming it is playing the devil's advocate and/or trolling,
No, one can figure out what the direction (and possibly the intention) of a thread is simply by looking at how people are communicating in it, there are some forms of communication that lead to crappy results on forums. Trolling is a type of contextual behavior.

Links with no explanation, declarative statements of truth without qualification, attempts to skirt the line of trolling, the results of this kind of behavior can be seen regardless of political orientation or any of that. If I miss ToS violations on ‘ my side’ I’m fine with having it pointed out.

Now, it might very well be that some violations don’t get addressed due to our own biases, that’s quite possible. If that’s the case though, someone with communication skills should address specific complaints instead of just constantly berating us with vague notions of who we are or what we are trying to do.

So show us where we're wrong. Instead of a wall of vague verbiage, lodge a specific complaint, and maybe we can have a dialogue about it. I can't do anything with all your conjecture about moderation motivations, relationship to mass media, desire to appear a certain way etc.
Well, the reason it is vague is because I am merely giving my perception - I have no desire to get into who is right or wrong or whether specific ToS violations occurred or not.

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:50 am
but also that the mods insist upon upholding an entirely conventional viewpoint whereby those who have formed an attachment to a mere representation are seen as the victims of trolling.
If you have the time to dig on the mod team like this, you have the time to explain what you are specifically talking about, how about you do that.
Firstly, I don't really see it as a dig, or a complaint, I am just responding to what you wrote above. Specifically, on the thread about Greta Thornberg, you did ask us to get on topic or you lock the thread. Then two posts were posted which directly did exactly what you asked, and you then complained and locked the thread anyway.

It's really no big deal for me, it just strikes me that you were the author of your own stress in that case, but you seem to feel justified in claiming that it is because of the behaviour of others... I don't blame you here, you made a call, and I understand the position of being a mod, it is difficult and can be hard work, however, my perception of the thread was that I took it merely at face value and therefore I tend to reject this idea of perceiving intentions that may or may not have existed in the minds of those posting.

There were a number of very judgemental responses, about which you said absolutely nothing, and a number of attempts to engage in the debate, which seemed to be viewed merely as playing the devil's advocate. The result - that of a locked thread - was inevitable under the circumstances, but it wasn't the fault of those you seem to point the finger at, it was merely an effect of having the debate curtailed by some kind of nervousness about the potential outcome.

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:33 am

The very OP in that thread violated the TOS. I witnessed exactly two people who seemed actually interested in a discussion of the wider issues. Sure, there is some possibility the thread could go in a positive direction, but from my mod experience so far it was -highly- unlikely. I have my doubts the the OP was even intended as such.

Maybe part of it is the Facebook-ication of things, but typically when I want to actually have a conversation, I don’t start it just by blurting antagonistic opinion pieces at people, ymmv.

It’s certainly a judgement call, and I can see why some might disagree.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:41 am

How many more posts before this thread gets locked ?

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:52 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:41 am
How many more posts before this thread gets locked ?
Idk, keep trolling and find out I guess, I won’t do it. I’m not sure you’ve-ever- contributed anything but vague complaints and accusations in situations like this.

Idk if it’s a lack of communication skills on your part or simply that you hold us in such contempt that we are unworthy of an explanation, but posts like this do nothing for your case, save with those who already have a bone to pick.

So, way to unproductively stir the pot, as always.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by futerko » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:16 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:33 am
The very OP in that thread violated the TOS. I witnessed exactly two people who seemed actually interested in a discussion of the wider issues. Sure, there is some possibility the thread could go in a positive direction, but from my mod experience so far it was -highly- unlikely. I have my doubts the the OP was even intended as such.

Maybe part of it is the Facebook-ication of things, but typically when I want to actually have a conversation, I don’t start it just by blurting antagonistic opinion pieces at people, ymmv.

It’s certainly a judgement call, and I can see why some might disagree.
Yes, it is just a judgement made concerning perceptions. Personally I counted about eight of us making contributions that were of interest to me. At the end of the day, I saw it as useful and fruitful to discuss both the issue of climate change itself and that of the commodification of a teenager by the mass media. As the moderator of that thread, you made the judgement call that it was neither useful nor fruitful.

I have no conception of any objective idea of positive or negative, merely the perception that the devaluation of the thread occurred entirely in the eye of the beholder. I am not going to make any claims about whether that was correct or not, merely that it was a reflection of your own desire. As a moderator, you get to make that call and that is fair enough, but it is your judgement call which gives shape to that evaluation irrespective of any individual poster's intentions.

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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:30 am

Of course, our decisions are by nature subjective, we just try to have them line up with the TOS. I posted a link -specifically- about the buying of the climate movement, not a peep. People would rather just live in the land of conjecture. What you saw as a fruitful conversation I mostly saw as people wanting an unmitigated bitch thread about Greta Thunberg, without enough redeeming factors to keep it going. The OP sets just this tone, and indeed a few posters seemed to reinforce this.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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futerko
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Re: Too many deleted posts

Post by futerko » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:38 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:30 am
Of course, our decisions are by nature subjective, we just try to have them line up with the TOS. I posted a link -specifically- about the buying of the climate movement, not a peep. People would rather just live in the land of conjecture. What you saw as a fruitful conversation I mostly saw as people wanting a bitch thread about Greta Thunberg. Do I need to point how that violates the TOS?
Well, it would seem to violate the basic nature of reality - unless any of us were claiming to know her personally - the discussion was about her representation in the media. This being a Buddhist site, I return to the idea that I would expect us to be clear that no actual Greta Thunberg's were present.

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